Z's and their HP

[woflsipder]

We’re talking about rusty old zed’s with limp teeth that are about to fall out , infectionful arms probably with wounds and dirtyness that makes them walking rotten corpses and do you think human mouth is any good at taking a bite at … anything except forks or spoons?

If someone is smart enough to walk with a holstered gun in an knife-wielding zombie apocalypse , that would explain why he managed to pull off only 2 or 3 body shots before one of the zed’s caught up and stabbed him in the throat.

But anyway , carrying a gun gives a moral boost , makes you a bigger man than if you’d run around with a pocket knife that you can barely reach your target with.

[Hyena_Grin]

Honestly, I’d just like to see guns take significant recoil hits after being struck in melee. Based on the type of gun - long guns would be the hardest to use in melee while pistols would be the easiest, with everything else falling in between. Stuff like hacking the barrel off a shotgun would also improve its melee effectiveness.

I don’t think there’s a problem with the health of zeds. A single zombie shouldn’t be an issue with even moderate training. Just go for the head. Zombies become a problem when there’s lots of them. To that end I’d like to see their AI improved - not to make them smarter, but to make their behavior more complicated (search behavior is a must) and interesting (herd behavior where zombies will move together in packs, search for the player together). Fortifying a shelter doesn’t feel very important when all you really need to do to stay safe at all times is to not be followed in. There should be some chance that a horde will decide to try to break down your door while you’re sleeping.

I’d like to see a lot more zombies spawned, but with a stealth system to make avoiding zombie less of an LoS thing. Right now it is virtually impossible to get deep into zombie controlled territory without fighting your way through or otherwise alerting every zombie you pass. With stealth you could try to sneak to that gunstore, end up messing up your sneaking, and suddenly there’s a hundred zombies all around you who want to eat your brains. That kind of problem doesn’t come up too often right now unless you are remarkably careless.

Also keep in mind that a zombie only needs to bite you once to risk a life-threatening infection. Which can lead to risk-taking behavior like making a mad dash for a pharmacy deep in zed territory because if you can’t get anti-biotics, you will die.

[Zireael]

Aye, stealth and a way to craft anti-biotics or otherwise stop infection (not counting cauterizing) would be nice.

[Sonny]

[quote=“Hyena Grin, post:22, topic:2137”]Honestly, I’d just like to see guns take significant recoil hits after being struck in melee. Based on the type of gun - long guns would be the hardest to use in melee while pistols would be the easiest, with everything else falling in between. Stuff like hacking the barrel off a shotgun would also improve its melee effectiveness.

I don’t think there’s a problem with the health of zeds. A single zombie shouldn’t be an issue with even moderate training. Just go for the head. Zombies become a problem when there’s lots of them. To that end I’d like to see their AI improved - not to make them smarter, but to make their behavior more complicated (search behavior is a must) and interesting (herd behavior where zombies will move together in packs, search for the player together). Fortifying a shelter doesn’t feel very important when all you really need to do to stay safe at all times is to not be followed in. There should be some chance that a horde will decide to try to break down your door while you’re sleeping.

I’d like to see a lot more zombies spawned, but with a stealth system to make avoiding zombie less of an LoS thing. Right now it is virtually impossible to get deep into zombie controlled territory without fighting your way through or otherwise alerting every zombie you pass. With stealth you could try to sneak to that gunstore, end up messing up your sneaking, and suddenly there’s a hundred zombies all around you who want to eat your brains. That kind of problem doesn’t come up too often right now unless you are remarkably careless.

Also keep in mind that a zombie only needs to bite you once to risk a life-threatening infection. Which can lead to risk-taking behavior like making a mad dash for a pharmacy deep in zed territory because if you can’t get anti-biotics, you will die.[/quote]

Eeeeeek! It was an example! I already said that Z’s don’t carry knives… I just wanted to point out that headshotting someone who dashes at you madly swinging their arms is not so easy, especially for non-trained usual Joe who holds gun in his hands for the first time, and that it’s hard to shoot someone in face to face distance. But your post has some really good ideas… I’d like to see that, be hunted, and most importantly, fear for my life whenever I come close to city… Could be good if zombie would have a random chance to knock you down, or even disarm you (I mean by knocking the gun out of your hand, not by pulling off some Krav Maga move).

[ejseto]

[quote=“TheRealTenman, post:19, topic:2137”]It is a fact, recognized by military and police forced around the world. It takes 10 seconds to draw, aim and fire a pistol. Count to ten now.
THAT IS FUCKING AGES![/quote]

Care to source this assertion? Or feel free to keep spewing made up statistics. I’ll have you know it takes 30 seconds to cover 20 feet in my made up, fictitious universe! 20 feet! NOW THAT IS FUCKING FAR!

The Tueller Drill, already brought up by someone else, determines the distance at which a knife wielder is a threat. That does not imply guaranteed death or even disadvantage, only danger (for the purposes of determining culpability). Tueller found that it took the same amount of time for most police officers to draw and fire as it took for an assailant to cover 7 yards. Neither of those acts takes 10 seconds.

[Flare]

As hard as it might be to hit a moving target at close range, it’s harder to land a blow with a knife. Real people can dodge knife attacks, they can’t dodge bullets, you just happened to miss them.

Another factor that tips it against the blade is that it’s generally very hard to incapacitate or kill someone with a knife when they know you’re attacking them. Exsanguination is often a long and drawn out process unless you cut a major blood vessel. And disconnecting the nervous system is often unreliable. Hitting the head might work, but there’s dueling accounts from the renaissance where daggers and rapiers reputably bounced off people’s skull.

[TheRealTenman]

Care to source this assertion?

A documentary on TV…some war/police one a few years ago… I just did a google for an exact source and I can’t provide one. Sorry about that.

The explanation was that from an unloaded, holstered, unprepared stand point (aka worst possible situation for the shooter) took 10 seconds approximately. The main time sink was the loading.

I'll have you know it takes 30 seconds to cover 20 feet in my made up, fictitious universe! 20 feet! NOW THAT IS FUCKING FAR!

Fuck you, your childish arguments, your cherry picking AND your sarcasm.

The Tueller Drill...assailant to cover 7 yards.

I am also finding a whole lot on some 21 foot rule. source: First google search for "10 second rule with knives vs guns"

[Weyrling]

The explanation was that from an unloaded, holstered, unprepared stand point (aka worst possible situation for the shooter) took 10 seconds approximately. The main time sink was the loading.

Agreed, you’re fucked if somebody comes at you with a knife when you haven’t even loaded your gun, the initiative always goes to the guy doing the ambushing, rather than the guy being ambushed.
Of course you said:

It is a fact, recognized by military and police forced around the world. It takes 10 seconds to draw, aim and fire a pistol.

I’m not a professional, but it takes me less time to draw and fire a pistol than that, you need to be more specific about all of the relevant conditions.
From the context of CDDA, we would assume you’re walking around pistol loaded and in hand, while you scan the nearby area for threats, this is clearly not what you’re talking about.

As far as effectiveness goes, it is far easier to get a significant hit with a gun than with a knife against somebody that is actively trying to avoid getting stabbed.
A grazing hit with a knife will not impair a serious fighter, however getting shot or stabbed will stop somebody in their tracks.

I’ve been in a few fights, and I can tell you that getting punched, kicked, or cut with a knife (or burned) during an adrenaline rush doesn’t trigger pain the same way you implied earlier unless it’s really serious.

[Sonny]

Ejseto, I know you’ll never admit it. If you’re unhappy with Tenman’s 10 seconds proposition, lower it in half. That’s 5 seconds - if guy who rushes at you with knife can travel 6,4m in 1.5 seconds, he gets from his spot to you three times. How many times you can get stabbed? At least once. If the blade hits some nerve center like kidney spot, you’re dead in matter of seconds. If it hits anything else, you’re pierced, in truckload of pain, and god be with you if the blade cuts sinews, like those in arms, which you’ll probably instinctively use to cover yourself. You can’t pull the trigger if you can’t clench your fist. Man, if you still disagree and feel like someone who does nothing else in life but train Tueller’s drill, lower it to 2 seconds. Then you’re probably a world record holder, but what the hell. That assailant will still get to you, with half second of spare time. It’s simple fuckin’ math. Hell, don’t act like you know everything in the world, no one does. You’re not even best in the world when it comes to anything, and even if you would be, there’s still someone who’s better than you. Just fucking calm down, we’re all grown up here.

[woflsipder]

If a healthy individual with a knife can get your throat open in 10 seconds that’s all right , but good old zed’s don’t have knifes and healthy body for massive lethal death strikes on kidneys. This thread was all about having massive problems hitting something that’s a bit close , but in the apocalypse if you have gun you will have it in your hands 24/7 and won’t even have the idea of sticking it in your holster. So kind of when a target is closer to you , it gets bigger so hitting spots should get easier. As long as there is no wrestling in the game , shooting targets should stay easier if they are closer , because zombies won’t grab your arms and put you on the ground for now.

[Sonny]

This is what it’s all about, yikes. Z’s are lumping old grandpas, which doesn’t correspond with my idea of usual zombie as fast, vicious and extremely aggresive, rage filled horror that sole intention is to smash your head and rip artery out from your neck. It’s like comparing zombies from resident evil 2 with infected from 28 days later.

[Belteshazzar]

which doesn’t correspond with my idea of usual zombie as fast, vicious and extremely aggresive, rage filled horror that sole intention is to smash your head and rip artery out from your neck.

Which is technically a modern Hollywood subversion of the traditional, lumbering, unfeeling zombies.

What stands out about zombies to me is the fact that they feel no pain, no fear, no weariness.

This makes them far less susceptible to wounding or agonizing attacks humans are, like being stabbed, disemboweled, having their face ripped off… anything short of limb amputation doing little incapacitate them (and in some cases even that has only given you a collection of still violently thrashing limbs.) The advancing zombie horde may be slow in the classics, but they are as inexorable as death itself.

[Sonny]

Gotta admit, never seen the classics. On the other hand, classics won’t have Rambo guy with M249 in hands and bow with explosive arrows (they can be crafted, eheh), so classic movie z’s don’t fit in Cata world, IMO. Yea, I kinda had this feeling, slow, falling apart zeds with '60 sweater and jeans version.

[Belteshazzar]

The point was the that classic zombie movies may have left them slow and stupid but a LOT physically tougher (excepting a lucky headshot in some versions.)

Bullets just put holes in the ‘already dead’ guy, massed gunefire might chop em up or at least increase the chances of a headshot, but you were playing your ammo against your aim. Explosives might blow off limbs, or make for a chunky salsa, but even a legless one-armed zombie was still a slowly crawling threat.

Hell half of the time setting them on fire did little to bother them but made for a scorched, stumbling corpse ready to return you an incendiary bearhug.

[woflsipder]

Old movies had though zombies because they were undead people that rise up from graves , but cataclysm has human zombies that just have minor goo related infection , but they still are just humans that don’t feel pain.

[Sonny]

And that’s where I’m getting to beginning of this thread - Z’s are weak. It would be best to have quite fast, tough zombies. Guys here said that if you’re skilled high enough with firearms then you’re top shot that can put a hole in olive from mile away, etc, but that still doesn’t change anything about the fact that walking into town guns blazing, literally running to zombies with bullet casings flying from you is a bad thing to do, something that you can’t afford to do and walk away unscathed because of your miraculous homing bullets. Whole thing this thread was about is that if you’re skilled enough, you one shot everything, and even if you’re unskilled, having a gun makes you unbeatable. Zeds should be tougher, guns should be less ultra-accurate, and maybe then I’ll finally respect poor green dudes trying to eat my brain. I want to feel some respect when I come near town, even with skilled guy. Maybe this whole awful rant of mine is bit too soon, and things may change after stealth comes into play. My point - combat should be meaty with enough difficulty to make it hard, yet fun.

[woflsipder]

I think instead of making zed’s tougher , we should make towns and cities spawn way more zombies so they literally overflow with zombies in the centre area. Guns should stay as accurate as they are. Guns should stay the best weapon for crowd control and be the ultimate weapon you can get (so archery doesn’t get in the way).

I have noticed that the bullets stop in the spot you aimed instead of flying further and damaging anything that gets in the path. So guns should become more of crowd control and allow you to blindly launch all the bullets at the horde with your m249 and not worry about them missing your initial target and just falling on the ground , not even scratching the 20 zed’s around him.

[Sonny]

It was kinda like this, with dynamic spawn. I remember running around a house with fuckton of zombies on my back, whole fucking street looked like a warzone, with me, doped on adderal or something, shooting, shooting, shooting, reloading, shooting, shooting, and what was the funniest part, I didn’t had enough ammo to beat them, even though I picked up a ton. There was like three crowds of zombies, each could’ve had like 40 zeds or who knows how much. Ended up holed in gunshop’s window, frantically shooting everything and switching between guns back and forth, because I HAD NO TIME TO RELOAD, bodies everywhere, fuck that was intense. They did killed me after all, basically flooded whole gunshop. I guess it’s time to make me a world with dynamic spawn, fuck it if I’ll die two hours later.

[Belteshazzar]

Old movies had though zombies because they were undead people that rise up from graves , but cataclysm has human zombies that just have minor goo related infection , but they still are just humans that don’t feel pain.

I’m sure the walking skeleton will agree with your diagnosis of a ‘minor goo related infection’. Besides; old Romero zombies were primarily the ‘recently’ deceased, not corpses clawing their way from under a tombstone.

instead of making zed’s tougher, we should make towns and cities spawn way more zombies so they literally overflow with zombies

All the Z hordes in this game could throw at me are easily countered with a tattered pair of socks, a shrubbery and a match.

I’ve far more respect for a jumping spider than any current zed.

[Sonny]

Exactly. You rarely meet more than 6 now, and with their current HP, it’s a piece of cake.