Z's and their HP

Sonny · 2013-07-07T16:07:53.000Z

They’re pretty weak. I just can’t help it, but usual Z should take some hits and keep running. I vaguely remember that in Whales’s version Z’s were tougher, but their numbers were smaller. Now if you have strong, melee char, it takes one or two hits with pipe, or in case of ranged char, one bullet when they’re near, which makes things pretty… uh, easy. I’m not against one-shotting Z’s, but it should take much greater skill than 1 in firearms to land headshot up close most of the time. In fact, closer your enemy is, harder it should be to hit them in torso, let alone in head. They’re aggresive, sway their heads and bodies while they run at you, there it is, already a hard target, let alone when they lay on you, trying to bash you to death.

Mmmmm, leads me to Knockdowns…

woflsipder · 2013-07-07T16:13:21.000Z

a human without tentacle arms should be able to shoot something in point blank with a gun.

Sonny · 2013-07-07T16:23:43.000Z

I have to disagree on that. In fact, firearms are not quite the best when it comes to close combat, take that well known “cop armed with pistol vs. thug with knife” situation/test. It has proven that closer your foe is, harder it is to hit him, let alone if you have gun in holster. Yea, I know that zeds don’t run around with knives and you have that .45 in your hands all the time, but it’s an example. The chance to hit is not 1m = 100% chance to hit head, it’s more like 4m = 90% chance to hit torso, unless you are really really proficient with firearms, but still, when someone has you pinpointed/is about to pinpoint you to the ground/wall, it’s really not easy to hit with firearm.

Spielman · 2013-07-07T17:40:53.000Z

Zeds arent easy to dispatch unless you min max and or load up on mutations or even grind skills for a really long time(In which case you deserve to knock them over like bowling pins. It’s why we have special infected and giant animals/mythical creatures). If you’re balanced like some of the characters I play then you wont be able to one shot most zeds without extensive training. They are a force that’s challenging at least, to me. It’s why we resort to kiting them over fences and through windows to get kills.

Zombies present two major threats. One being the threat of being overwhelmed by a relentless army and two being that they’re the living dead and dont go down without doing extensive damage or severing/damaging the brain. So the zombies cant be too strong least you be flooded by hulks or too few which dulls the experience because hey, three zeds that cant quite catch you but can knock you over and rip your throat out isn’t that big of a threat as opposed to turning a corner and being faced to face with five or six zeds with four or five behind you. Not only that but if you don’t run over or butcher them, they have a chance of getting back up. The most I’d suggest for zombies and NPC’s in general is more dynamic hit boxes.

Allowing you to effectively blow off limbs, sever body parts, punch gaping holes in heads and so on. A little in the spirit of dwarf fortress, although it’s already similar and I recognize that they’re two entirely different games.

Sonny · 2013-07-07T18:02:54.000Z

It just seems strange that when you get a gun, you’re an instant death machine, even when your character is not trained in firearms… At least it seems like that to me. I never had too much trouble with them, at least when I played ranged characters. Later on, when you become more proficient with firearms, you one shot everything in sight - had char with 9 firearms, 5 smg, 5 rifles, and pretty much anything that shown up was instantly dead, I was even shooting squirrels, just to get them out of my targets. Everything goes down with weakest caliber - .22, and 9mm are unstoppable. I always took .44 Ruger with me as a sidearm, but rarely used it, just for show. Maybe the skill is set too high from beginning, I dunno. Same goes with archery, which is overpowered now… Z’s feel too weak in my opinion.

ejseto · 2013-07-07T20:11:16.000Z

Sonny:

well known “cop armed with pistol vs. thug with knife” situation/test.

I don’t know what universe you live in, but I’ve never heard of this “well known situation.” I’d take a handgun over a knife in pretty much any situation, besides, “He’s already got the knife at my throat.” I think you watch too many action movies. As hard as it might be to hit a moving target at close range, it’s harder to land a blow with a knife. Real people can dodge knife attacks, they can’t dodge bullets, you just happened to miss them.

Oh, and one of the reasons Z’s are so weak is that they don’t have separate body parts. An NPC or the player can take a lot more damage if it’s distributed over their entire body, but Z’s only have a single health pool.

KA101 · 2013-07-07T20:11:55.000Z

Sonny:

It just seems strange that when you get a gun, you’re an instant death machine, even when your character is not trained in firearms… At least it seems like that to me. I never had too much trouble with them, at least when I played ranged characters. Later on, when you become more proficient with firearms, you one shot everything in sight - had char with 9 firearms, 5 smg, 5 rifles, and pretty much anything that shown up was instantly dead, I was even shooting squirrels, just to get them out of my targets. Everything goes down with weakest caliber - .22, and 9mm are unstoppable. I always took .44 Ruger with me as a sidearm, but rarely used it, just for show. Maybe the skill is set too high from beginning, I dunno. Same goes with archery, which is overpowered now… Z’s feel too weak in my opinion.

9 is a very high level. If you take it in Cooking, you could have had a job in those Science Labs. Feel free to go find a Fault in the Mines and shoot the stuff down there!

jumjummju · 2013-07-07T20:14:44.000Z

I think by the time you have a 5+ firearms/smg/handguns/what have you skill it’s assumed you’re character is about as accurate as your average soldier, and can hit them quite well. And handguns at point-blank range against knives is pretty bad, but against a zombie is great, since you can grapple with a zombie quite easily without the fear of losing a kidney (Unless you have like 8 on top of you), and just place the gun against it’s temple, murdering the crap out of it.

And with a character at 9 in a ranged skill you are essentially of one of those guys from Top Shot that can hit cans from half a mile away. Of course you’ll OHK everything. (Though it’s ridiculous how easy it is to train archery by just chopping up a tree into a ton of arrow shafts)

ejseto · 2013-07-07T20:20:40.000Z

Sonny:

Everything goes down with weakest caliber - .22, and 9mm are unstoppable.

I believe this is getting nerfed. There’s already a pull request to clamp dispersion from skill to 0, so skill won’t compensate for the inherent inaccuracy of your firearm. This would also cause you to get fewer headshots since those are based on accuracy.

ejseto · 2013-07-07T20:33:39.000Z

jumjummju:

handguns at point-blank range against knives is pretty bad

I guess you’ve never heard the expression, “bringing a knife to a gun-fight.” Let’s completely ignore the fact that using a knife effectively would require quite a bit more training than, “I go to the gun-range every 2 weeks.” Let’s also ignore the fact that when you actually physically attack someone with your body, or an object you’re holding, you’re very likely to tense up and give away your intentions, while a trigger-pull is a fine-motor action. Considering that you could also use a handgun both to parry a knife, and to bludgeon your enemy at close-range, a knife has almost no advantages unless you’ve already got it pressed against their flesh.

P.S. “point-blank” doesn’t mean pressed up against their flesh.

Sonny · 2013-07-07T20:38:45.000Z

Yay, I hope so. Eh, about that cop vs. thug situation - I didn’t made that up. It may not be that well known, okay, but they really tried this. One guy - “cop”, was standing still, while the other guy, “thug”, rushed at him with plastic knife. They tried this situation from different ranges, angles, and basically every situation when “thug” was closer than 6m or so, “cop” got hurt/stabbed/cut etc… Z’s may be slower than player, but still, if they’re like in L4D (which I assume they are, since Cata drawn inspiration from it), they’re pretty fast and move their heads while running, so it’s nearly impossible to place headshot nearly every time just because Z is near you, in fact, it may be same difficulty as when it’s far. I dunno if you understand what I mean…

Edit: It’s called Tueller’s drill, this gun vs. knife situation

TaintedHolyWater · 2013-07-07T23:16:55.000Z

[quote=“ejseto, post:10, topic:2137”]I guess you’ve never heard the expression, “bringing a knife to a gun-fight.”[/quote] Um, the quote is "[B]Never[/B] bring a knife to a gun-fight."
It stems from the idea that you should go confident that you will kill on the first shot or not go at all.

That said you have firearms + weapon-of-choice skill? This means you are trained/know what your doing. You can draw a bead, lead your target and aim for center of mass. You know the basics outside of maintaining your weapon something I assume your character does in the random waiting time.

There is a reason police use tasers. It’s to shoot the target (remember tasers shoot while stunguns are melee… stupid I know.) normally from within a few meters. I’ll run up and stab him! bang you are dead or on the floor if they are using nonleathal force. The only thing a screaming junkie with a knife (or a flailing zombie) has over someone with a gun is intimidation. Junkies (and again zombies) rarely care if you have a gun but you might hesitate to shoot them.

You have skill with your weapon (presumably from shooting things in the face as apposed to going to a range) so you know not to hesitate and instead blow the bastard away with your .45 and draw a bead on the next one.

As for shooting in melee I don’t see the big problem. Sure long arms (rifles, machine guns and RPGs you suicidal fool) do cause problem because the barrel gets in the way or can be grabbed and pointed safely away. Unlike rifles, pistols don’t have these problems or at least have them much reduced with the shortening of the barrel. Oh, and you’re not blocking a knife with a pistol… step back, take a deep breath and shoot him; lets see if he can back away from a bullet. Most knives are thrust not swung so blocking that would require you to catch the tip of the knife in your barrel… ya right, or in the trigger guard… you know where it cuts off your finger… you know the one you shoot with… ya, lets not do that.

If you want more durable zombies open their file and put a 0 at the end of their health, you’ll have an army of meat tanks trying to eat your face instead of the weak normal zombies. [/pointless rant]

Last notes. They did that in Mythbusters Adam? Jamie? Walrus ran at the goofy one with a foam knife while said goofy one had to draw, cock, and shoot before being stabbed. They marked the knifes effective range at ~15-20ft I think. But we walk around with a loaded gun in hand… that range is significantly shorter because of it.

Bladerock · 2013-07-08T00:59:36.000Z

Regular zombies are just slow ass people with fists and teeth for weapons. They are not a threat if you are prepared or well armed.

ejseto · 2013-07-08T01:02:51.000Z

Sonny:

Edit: It’s called Tueller’s drill, this gun vs. knife situation

This implies the one with the gun has already been caught off guard, since the gun is still in the holster.

[quote=“TaintedHolyWater, post:12, topic:2137”][quote=“ejseto, post:10, topic:2137”]I guess you’ve never heard the expression, “bringing a knife to a gun-fight.”[/quote] Um, the quote is "[B]Never[/B] bring a knife to a gun-fight."
It stems from the idea that you should go confident that you will kill on the first shot or not go at all.[/quote]
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bring_a_knife_to_a_gunfight

bring a knife to a gunfight
(idiomatic) To enter into a confrontation or other challenging situation without being adequately equipped or prepared.
1987, David Mamet, The Untouchables, [1]:
Isn’t that just like a wop? Brings a knife to a gun fight.

My version is closer than yours. Both in meaning and form. The point I was making is anyone who picks a fight with someone wielding a handgun (that is, already holding it) with only a knife is almost certainly woefully unprepared, and thus dead meat, unless he’s already got the knife at the guy’s throat.

Sonny · 2013-07-08T03:02:49.000Z

Well, I said it’s just an example. This isn’t about if firearms are better than knives. Of course firearms are better than knives, but not in all situations. After all, you’re firing, example, 9mm projectile - that’s 9mm small object. It requires some practice to get a good hit rate on smaller, non moving objects, and hit rate goes down if target is moving, even though that target might be bigger, and goes especially down when you’re under stress and target is too close for comfort. In Cata - you have a firearm, you’re undefeatable = not real. Closer the baddie is, greater the chance to place a headshot, up to nearly 100% even without proper training = not real. You have 8 guys around you, you 8x headshot them in one second = definitely not real, unless it’s Matrix.

ejseto · 2013-07-08T05:34:15.000Z

Sonny:

Of course firearms are better than knives, but not in all situations.

Yeah, and that’s why I qualified my statement with the whole “already got the knife at my throat” part. The idea that a knife is better than a gun at 20 feet or even 10 is preposterous. Even if you can close that distance before I draw, that doesn’t mean you can kill/incapacitate me in one strike before I shoot you. It’s a knife, not a light-saber. Even being untrained and out of shape, I’m pretty sure I could dodge a few knife strikes if I knew they were coming. How many bullets can you dodge? Funny you mentioned The Matrix.

Human beings are pretty big targets btw. Not only that, but we’re slow. Slow to move, slow to accelerate. You’re telling me you think you could stab someone fatally before they shoot you, starting from 20 feet away? Gtfo. There are a LOT of assumptions you’d have to make before that becomes remotely realistic, foremost of which is they’d have to be panicking like a bitch. Takes practice? How much practice do you have with knife fighting? Can you stab someone trying to dodge on your first try? How much stress is a guy who brought a knife to a gun-fight under? So really, tell me, what is the situation in which a knife is better than a handgun?

And yeah, headshots are not realistic in this game. I already pointed out that skill-based dispersion is being clamped so you can’t automatically score headshots with inaccurate weapons by having negative dispersion.

Zireael · 2013-07-08T10:10:38.000Z

[quote=“jumjummju, post:8, topic:2137”]I think by the time you have a 5+ firearms/smg/handguns/what have you skill it’s assumed you’re character is about as accurate as your average soldier, and can hit them quite well. And handguns at point-blank range against knives is pretty bad, but against a zombie is great, since you can grapple with a zombie quite easily without the fear of losing a kidney (Unless you have like 8 on top of you), and just place the gun against it’s temple, murdering the crap out of it.

And with a character at 9 in a ranged skill you are essentially of one of those guys from Top Shot that can hit cans from half a mile away. Of course you’ll OHK everything.[/quote]

Point taken.

Mr_Lolz · 2013-07-08T11:13:14.000Z

anyone with rl firearm experience surely knows that moving a gun from the saftey on, holstered position to the saftey off, unholstered position, aiming and then firing is fairly time consuming unless you have built up muscle memory of the action. If doing so in a panic, the odds of performing the action quickly and without error drop significantly. At a short distance, like a couple of meters, I would bet on the thug/knife over the suprised man with the holstered gun every time!

TheRealTenman · 2013-07-08T11:22:41.000Z

ejseto:

The idea that a knife is better than a gun at 20 feet or even 10 is preposterous.

It is a fact, recognized by military and police forced around the world. It takes 10 seconds to draw, aim and fire a pistol. Count to ten now.
THAT IS FUCKING AGES!

Even if you can close that distance before I draw, that doesn't mean you can kill/incapacitate me in one strike before I shoot you. It's a knife, not a light-saber. Even being untrained and out of shape, I'm pretty sure I could dodge a few knife strikes if I knew they were coming.

If you take a knife at all you are fucked. Really. If it hits you guess what, you have a giant fucking hole in you. If it grazes you it isn’t a graze… it is a slice.
I don’t think you realize just how fast a melee attack can be IRL. Have you EVER been in a fight? Even if you see them coming, unless you are trained, you WILL get hit. Either in the area they aimed for or your arm. Try stabbing yourself in the arm, it hurts a little doesn’t it?

How many bullets can you dodge? Funny you mentioned The Matrix.

How many do you think you can hit me with? Get some one to stand right in front of your face, about 3 inches away. Now try and lift your arm up in front of you. Oh noes! You can’t.
If you can’t lift your arm in front of you then you can’t shoot. If you think an untrained person could shoot without aiming you are {derogatory comment about another users intelligence.

Human beings are pretty big targets btw.

Pfft.

Not only that, but we're slow. Slow to move, slow to accelerate.

AHAHAHAHAHA!

Count to ten again. How far do you think a person can move in that time.

You're telling me you think you could stab someone fatally before they shoot you, starting from 20 feet away?

You're telling me you think you could stab someone in any fashion, thus rendering them in a fuckton of pain, before they shoot you, starting from 20 feet away?

Fixed. Yes, this is recognized by police forces and military.

There are a LOT of assumptions you'd have to make before that becomes remotely realistic, foremost of which is they'd have to be panicking like a bitch.

The first assumption is that the weapon is holstered, if not then change it to 10 ft or less.
The second is that both are amateurs.
Third is that neither panic. Seriously, fuck the human brain. The amount of factors to weigh in would take a matter of hours to explain. Let alone discuss.

Takes practice? How much practice do you have with knife fighting?

Have you ever slapped someone with the side of a closed fist? Then you can knife some one.

Can you stab someone trying to dodge on your first try?

Can you dodge and take aim at the same time?

How much stress is a guy who brought a knife to a gun-fight under?

How much stress is a guy who spots a guy running at them at all!? There is a reason jump scares work in movies. Stop thinking you are some super soldier with nerves of steel.

So really, tell me, what is the situation in which a knife is better than a handgun?

One that is incredibly close range. One that is at medium range but with a holstered weapon. One at long range if you are a ninja.

Sonny · 2013-07-08T13:21:21.000Z

^ That. It’s tried, true, proven. And if you’re up against smaller guy, who are generally faster, then you’re ultra fucked. I don’t want to start arguing about shit, but if people can rush 6,4m in 1.5 second, then human beings are fast. I did watched a lot of movies, like everyone, but real life combat is bit different. Having a gun means only one thing - that you have a gun. It doesn’t make you immune to damage or win every situation. It’s nothing but a weapon… I hope that you don’t count on guns so much, if you have one, for your own sake.

makes me think about calibers… .38 ain’t exactly big deal, again, there were cases where cops/soldiers emptied their whole revolver clip into attacker armed with slashing weapon (it was in Africa, not sure now), and when backups arrived, they found two bodies - attacker, who succumbed to his wounds, and shooter, slashed to death. They were mostly drugged (attackers, I mean), but if human body can take so much punishment, zombie guy who feels no pain can surely take same amount of hurt, or more.