Guns - Lets talk about them

[Turtlicious]

So a lot of people I know think melee it OP, and I can definitely see where the are coming from guns are loud, draw attention, tend to do less damage and are highly outclassed by trained melee people, or even bows. When I’ve discussed this with people they seem to express discontent at guns being more of a “trap” option. I’d like to change their functionality a bit, to something more of a siege option, and I thought we could talk about that a bit.

Now with my minimal programming experience, I can go ahead and increase gun damage /range across the board, most Normal Zeds would get blown away in 2 or 3 shots, and the stronger weapons could be good for taking out meese and zombears. Also pretty great for hunting, as they should be.

What I can’t do with .json editting would be making them louder, it’s proven that guns are loud and can damage hearing, this could be mitigated with ear plugs, but it’s something we can do to balance out the guns, increasing the sound would also pull zombies from everywhere, like the edges of the reality bubble and then some (maybe when firing a gun it creates a “sound” tile that the zombies are attracted to for X steps that way the zombies are pulled from outside the edge of the reality bubble for a bit.)

What do you guys think about this? How do you feel this would effect gameplay?

[PropaneSoup]

increasing the sound would also pull zombies from everywhere, like the edges of the reality bubble and then some (maybe when firing a gun it creates a “sound” tile that the zombies are attracted to for X steps that way the zombies are pulled from outside the edge of the reality bubble for a bit.)

As my understanding goes, this is what the WiP hordes option does. The problem with that option currently is that they’ll be attracted to you breaking a twig, and you’re usually the only thing making any sound at all.

Now, I can agree that guns could use a little buff in their damage. The ability to attack at range is really only super valuable against enemies like hulks or brutes, who’ll fling you if you get close. For most other enemies, it’s easier and quieter to just club 'em with a bat.

I think guns could go with some more ammo scarcity as well. Currently, it’s very easy to run through a neighborhood and head into every basement you see searching for a gun stache. Find a pistol and a rifle with some ammo and you’re pretty much fine from any immediate threat.

[Coolthulhu]

If guns are to get buff to damage, it should affect mostly the weakest guns. And zombie armor should be buffed to compensate.

Guns like shotguns are already very solid and you can wreck stuff with no skill. Those don’t need any damage buff. They could trade some damage for accuracy because currently the best way of using guns is at point blank, but otherwise are fine.

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:3, topic:9290”]If guns are to get buff to damage, it should affect mostly the weakest guns. And zombie armor should be buffed to compensate.

Guns like shotguns are already very solid and you can wreck stuff with no skill. Those don’t need any damage buff. They could trade some damage for accuracy because currently the best way of using guns is at point blank, but otherwise are fine.[/quote]

Agreed on the shotgun bit, would you agree they need to be louder though IE: Potentially causing deafness?

[MormonPartyboat]

When I’ve discussed this with people they seem to express discontent at guns being more of a “trap” option.

I don’t think the problems really lie with guns themselves, but rather the difficulty in training guns vs training melee weapons and the problems with maintaining a supply of ammo. By the time you get a solid weapon and a decent pile of ammo, you’ve generally already driven your melee skills into the double digits and found a broadsword or katana or equally hilarious weapon.

I suggested some skill changes which would go a decent way towards fixing some of the issues remaining after the skill gain nerf, but the scarcity of ammo is always going to be an issue unless more of the loot tables are tweaked to have appropriate ammo drop with a gun.

Agreed on the shotgun bit, would you agree they need to be louder though IE: Potentially causing deafness?

Maybe there could be a check to see if you’re indoors (or in a vehicle) and amplify the effect of the loudness if so?

Also, you CAN actually (sort of) adjust the loudness of a weapon through json fidgeting - the loudness is derived from the damage of the ammo. So if you had a gun with 20 damage and a bullet with 0 damage, it’d deal the same as 0/20 but be silent.

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“Turtlicious, post:1, topic:9290”]When I’ve discussed this with people they seem to express discontent at guns being more of a “trap” option.

I don’t think the problems really lie with guns themselves, but rather the difficulty in training guns vs training melee weapons and the problems with maintaining a supply of ammo. By the time you get a solid weapon and a decent pile of ammo, you’ve generally already driven your melee skills into the double digits and found a broadsword or katana or equally hilarious weapon.

I suggested some skill changes which would go a decent way towards fixing some of the issues remaining after the skill gain nerf, but the scarcity of ammo is always going to be an issue unless more of the loot tables are tweaked to have appropriate ammo drop with a gun.

Agreed on the shotgun bit, would you agree they need to be louder though IE: Potentially causing deafness?

Maybe there could be a check to see if you’re indoors (or in a vehicle) and amplify the effect of the loudness if so?

Also, you CAN actually (sort of) adjust the loudness of a weapon through json fidgeting - the loudness is derived from the damage of the ammo. So if you had a gun with 20 damage and a bullet with 0 damage, it’d deal the same as 0/20 but be silent.[/quote]

Wow that actually helps a ton, I’ll get to work today and see what I can change / make a mod and see how people like it.

[kevin.granade]

Just fyi, melee is getting a sizeable nerf soon when the new stamina system lands.

[FunsizeNinja123]

Last I remembered, the more damage a firearm does the louder it is.

[John_Candlebury]

My only complain with guns is that the best way to use them is to wait until the target monster is adjacent to you and then fire. So they end up being like melee guns with limited uses.

They could use some general accuracy buffs imo.

[SteelBlueWolf]

The overwhelming majority of guns are loud enough to deafen you after a few shots. AFAIK even with today’s best suppressors it isn’t a great idea to shoot high caliber rifles without ear protection. I think this would be an interesting thing to include in the game as it would make suppressors far more important to firearm use and unsuppressed guns would be an emergency option.

As for range/accuracy I’m with the people saying it should be increased. Even someone who has never touched a gun before should be able to hit a stationary human sized target at 50m with a rifle, especially with the high-tech sniper rifles of 20XX.

Semi-related: shouldn’t ammunition be assumed to be FMJ rather than specifically labeled such?

[Eliijahh]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:9, topic:9290”]My only complain with guns is that the best way to use them is to wait until the target monster is adjacent to you and then fire. So they end up being like melee guns with limited uses.

They could use some general accuracy buffs imo.[/quote]

Yeah agree. Even with high levels, basic firearms are not very viable long range. I think they should have bigger range.

[Valpo]

You mean more accuracy. The available projectile Weapons do have sufficient range.

Also we need more reasons to use projectile weapons… maybe now that we can actually run we might want to buff up all our enemies??? That or weaken melee further.

That or both…

I would say making melee combat more realistic in terms of damage and hit/dodge Will certainly give firearms more value.

[Arek_PL]

As for range/accuracy I’m with the people saying it should be increased. Even someone who has never touched a gun before should be able to hit a stationary human sized target at 50m with a rifle, especially with the high-tech sniper rifles of 20XX.

While hi-tech guns like that famous tracking point hunting rifles will make shooting easy for everyone but normal guns are harder to use
personally i have hard time hitting a 15x15 cm target with rifle from 6 meters without scope (at least i am better with pistol, i hit target at 30 meters)

but in cata even high skills with guns and sniper as profesion do not give great advantage

[Coolthulhu]

but in cata even high skills with guns and sniper as profesion do not give great advantage

Yeah, this.

At high levels, you still get the penalty for dex/per below 12 (no way to mitigate those except raising the stats), meaning that without “talent” you won’t ever be a good sniper.

Maybe the low stats could affect how recoil decreases instead of just adding to dispersion? That way a patient and skilled sniper could eventually line up a shot nicely with a scope, a talented one would just do so faster.

[botherations]

[quote=“SteelBlueWolf, post:10, topic:9290”]As for range/accuracy I’m with the people saying it should be increased. Even someone who has never touched a gun before should be able to hit a stationary human sized target at 50m with a rifle, especially with the high-tech sniper rifles of 20XX.

While hi-tech guns like that famous tracking point hunting rifles will make shooting easy for everyone but normal guns are harder to use
personally i have hard time hitting a 15x15 cm target with rifle from 6 meters without scope (at least i am better with pistol, i hit target at 30 meters)

but in cata even high skills with guns and sniper as profesion do not give great advantage[/quote]

Really? As someone raised around guns and with a lot of hunting, a rifle should be easier to hit targets with than a pistol under almost every circumstance, even with iron sights. This goes for moving targets as well. I’ve shot a lot of harmless woodland creatures in my youth, and I can tell you that rifles are not accurate enough at a range in Cataclysm. Pistols on the other hand are meant for close range and shouldn’t really be accurate at all beyond about twenty feet.

[Random_dragon]

Hmm. Not entirely sure how to weigh in on this, though I suspect the new stamina feature added to the experimentals likely has made melee a tad less practical since then, though the affects on non-firearm ranged weapons seems quite minimal, with the aim mechanics being the main counterbalance, the positive to the stamina system’s negative.

If you want “murder all the things now” then shotguns still reign supreme in that regard despite their noise. So far I’ve still found them surprisingly practical, moreso if you either have the option of fleeing afterward, or if you’re planning a deliberate effort to draw all the undead in the area with the express purpose of exterminating them.

The fact that buckshot has an arbitrarily short range and the spread not having its potential benefits that it does in real life is definitely an annoyance though.

[Arek_PL]

The fact that buckshot has an arbitrarily short range and the spread not having its potential benefits that it does in real life is definitely an annoyance though.

Actualy some enemies are hard to hit and buckshots ignore that giving more accuracy than anything elsle

[Random_dragon]

Oh? I thought the “skeletons and other monsters ignoring ranged attacks” was universal. O.o

[kevin.granade]

Shotguns have higher accuracy due to the spread, that’s going to be the only benefit you get IRL as well, I’m not sure what potential benefits you’re expecting other than that.
Suggest a way to make guns realistically accurate without making any character with a half-decent gun invincible and we can talk. If we get hordes working such that they’re not game breaking and they make guns reasonably dangerous to use, that might do it, but if we just made any given rifle capable of hitting at max sight range with sufficient aiming right now, it would simply break the game. Right now the least problematic fix for this I have available is scaling down gun effective range to fit within the reality bubble, so that’s what we’re doing.

[Random_dragon]

Hmm. The thing is I could’ve sworn that they had high dispersion, though I might be wrong in that regard.

The other issue I was thinking of is range, though I guess it is consistent with all the firearms in general having a fairly short effective range.