Um, this is completely, utterly wrong. It has everything to do with our intelligence. Figuring out how to use weapons, learning how to create weapons that cater to specific uses, learning to hunt in packs and hunt using strategies that take advantage of the weaknesses of our prey, that’s all intelligence.
Try googling around for martial arts forums where trained fighters, who know more about this than we do, discuss the prospect of beating a predatory animal in hand to hand combat. It’s universally recognized as suicide, although against certain smaller predators people believe it’s possible to win at the risk of severe/life-threatening injuries.
Most of the “man beats bear” examples you provided are uncorroborated legends. The one news article you found about the marine is an example of miraculous luck. Again, google around about what guns to use vs bears, or the advantages of bear mace and vs firearms. Universally the advice is firearms that aren’t sufficiently powerful will simply result in pissing off the bear enough to kill you.
Killing other predatory animals with the proper melee weapons is certainly possible, and there are plenty examples of that.
The examples of martial arts masters killing things like bulls with their bear hands are exceedingly rare, and likely take place in situations that are far more controlled than a random encounter in the wild where you’re attacked, unprepared, and probably encumbered.
Cataclysm DDA is supposed to trend towards realism, and based on what people actually trained in martial arts say, killing predators unarmed isn’t something your average survivor should be able to do unenhanced.
Fucking blows up laughing
Fucking blows up laughing[/quote]
I wonder if my bearmace will work on this zombear…
Or I could just karate chop it to death
Fucking blows up laughing[/quote]
You do realize this drives most of the design decisions here, ya?
Did you bold “bear mace” beacuse you think it’s a made-up thing? 
No, it’s a inside joke with us.
I don’t think an undead bear really cares about something that only inflicts pain (Which all undead don’t give a fuck about).
And unnecessary double post is unnecessary.
I had to google to find out that bear mace is not actually a mace…
Which makes sense, since the only melee weapon that gives you a reasonable chance against a bear is a polearm, and then only if you can make the bear impale itself by charging at you.
I agree with Paquito, that MA masters who could possibly kill bear are very rare. And they are, definetely, masters of their art (or just extremely lucky). And average survivor from cata isnt MA master. Some karate classes and so on… and voila - after few days of zombie smashing he could become High Master . Kind of… unrealistic…
(pause for related jokes)
Anyway, I’ll point it again - how can punches and kicks could possibly kill zombear if they couldnt reach deep enough to ‘kill’ its ‘inner goo’? When speaking about average human-based zombie it’s OK - char can break their bones/neck/rib cage and so on. But bear with its thick layers of hide, fat, muscles… I think that some enemies are bound to be not just the ‘mmkay another victim…’ but the 'omfg its chasing me!!! ’
[quote=“Sanarr, post:30, topic:6469”]I agree with Paquito, that MA masters who could possibly kill bear are very rare. And they are, definetely, masters of their art (or just extremely lucky). And average survivor from cata isnt MA master. Some karate classes and so on… and voila - after few days of zombie smashing he could become High Master . Kind of… unrealistic…
(pause for related jokes)
Anyway, I’ll point it again - how can punches and kicks could possibly kill zombear if they couldnt reach deep enough to ‘kill’ its ‘inner goo’? When speaking about average human-based zombie it’s OK - char can break their bones/neck/rib cage and so on. But bear with its thick layers of hide, fat, muscles… I think that some enemies are bound to be not just the ‘mmkay another victim…’ but the 'omfg its chasing me!!! '[/quote]
well in cataclysm bear is still realistic most newbs will die during fighting with bear/zombear even if they use powerfull firearms while some masters like our ninja can wrestle tanks ,jabberwock and bears/zombears
[quote=“Sanarr, post:30, topic:6469”]I agree with Paquito, that MA masters who could possibly kill bear are very rare. And they are, definetely, masters of their art (or just extremely lucky). And average survivor from cata isnt MA master. Some karate classes and so on… and voila - after few days of zombie smashing he could become High Master . Kind of… unrealistic…
(pause for related jokes)
Anyway, I’ll point it again - how can punches and kicks could possibly kill zombear if they couldnt reach deep enough to ‘kill’ its ‘inner goo’? When speaking about average human-based zombie it’s OK - char can break their bones/neck/rib cage and so on. But bear with its thick layers of hide, fat, muscles… I think that some enemies are bound to be not just the ‘mmkay another victim…’ but the 'omfg its chasing me!!! '[/quote]
When dropping a zed, you’re not so much killing the blob-in-the-Edgar-suit* so much as you’re making the Edgar suit inoperable without taking time to repair it. The Blob can repair its ride but it takes an hour or six. (Butchering/pulping the body does irreparable damage.)
So you don’t need to penetrate the bear to hit the goo (there isn’t One Big Blob In The Bear, either). You just need to do enough structural damage to put it on the ground. Granted, that’s probably more difficult on a bear carcass than on a human carcass, though.
When a cyborg ninja martial artist with hydraulic muscles decides to beat something to death, that thing is screwed even if it’s a shoggoth, but an unarmed master with 30+ strength is basically an anime character.
The main issue with martial arts seems to be that high levels of skill allow you to murder anything whatsoever without getting scratched, strength and dexterity should limit how hard you can hit and how many attacks you can dodge.
Basically, being a grandmaster of kicking things in the face shouldn’t allow you to kick a zombie hulk through a wall if you have 4 strength, and you shouldn’t be able to dodge SMG fire if you have 4 dexterity.
Skills are just kind of crazy at the moment, practice and training shouldn’t trump physical limitations by an order of magnitude, that’s what cybernetics and mutations are for.
I’ve shot a bear with the weakest firearm known to man. A .22, and killed it. It involved aiming for the eye. Most people don’t understand these simple bear safety tips:
- Bears won’t attack you for no reason. (They do in cataclysm 4norasins)
- Stay away from a bear with cubs
- If you have a firearm, try shooting it off to scare it off.
- If that fails, shoot it in the eyes.
- If that fails, a bear will always stop attacking if you stab it in the throat or break it’s muzzle with a well placed kick.
- Bears cannot out swim humans.
These are simple facts.
I think everything in Cata is a jerk for no adequate raisin. Up to and including gtaguy.
Also, there are so weaker firearms, like small bore muskets.
Even more also, I’m pretty sure that this is a thread about martial arts being incredibly powerful against everything.
EVEN MOST ALSO, I dunno, I’m pretty sure that martial arts should be far more dependent on stranth. Like, I imagine Bruce Lee could kill a bear with his bare hands, but I doubt someone of even above average strength could do it, even with all the martial arts training in the world.
[quote=“Datanazush, post:36, topic:6469”]Even more also, I’m pretty sure that this is a thread about martial arts being incredibly powerful against everything.
EVEN MOST ALSO, I dunno, I’m pretty sure that martial arts should be far more dependent on stranth. Like, I imagine Bruce Lee could kill a bear with his bare hands, but I doubt someone of even above average strength could do it, even with all the martial arts training in the world.[/quote]
In reality most creatures are pretty fragile if you attack the right place, bears are not that much of an exception.
The main issue with killing a bear unarmed is that it can disable, maim, or kill you in a single hit, whereas a person trying to kill a bear unarmed would have to completely avoid any hits while exploiting leverage and hitting the bear in all its weak points, such as joints, eyes, throat, nose, etc.
Considering that bears are pretty fast for their size and that a single mistake has the best case scenario of you getting horribly mauled, it’s a really (really) stupid idea, but not quite impossible.
Guns are a much better idea, shooting something in the eyes is the easiest way to damage the brain, but you’d have to be an expert marksman with nerves of steel to even consider trying to pull that off with a bear charging at you.
Skills in general are way too easy to get to supernatural levels, this is a known issue, and from what I remember the intended ‘master’ level is going to be 10 (or so), and the skill rust system is also planned to change, so I see this particular balance issue as relevant, but slated for change already.
It’s something to keep in mind going forward, but it might be doing unnecessary work ahead of an already planned solution.
Remember, DDA is a Roguelike. We don’t have dragons or balrogs for the player to slay, we’ve got zombie bears and moose. And it’s basic rule-of-cool too; curb-stomping a giant mutant animal is the unarmed fighter character’s epic moment in the same sort of fashion as blowing one’s head off from a mile away is for the sniper character.
Perhaps the larger animals should have more protection against basic bashing attacks, but precision strikes ignore most protection? At least that way precision strikes would be more useful against enemies than just applying a stun.
Presumably this would come with Precision Strike becoming a more common technique, I always figured that martial arts would be a very crit-heavy fighting style.
Yes, that’s why spears are so good for hunting such creatures. A bear has longer melee reach than a human, and with spear you can impale the beast (in fact, the beast impales itself) and keep it at distance at the same time. It’s still very risky, especially alone.
There aren’t many roguelikes where the player is supposed to curb-stomp dragons or balrogs. Those are boss monsters, not one-hit kills.