What are some things that should be in the Cataclysm?

[mlangsdorf]

There is a vague plan to enable dual wielding, but it’s not going to be an accurate way to fire anything unless you are heavily augmented or mutated and can aim two weapons at the same time.

Dual wielding melee weapons is somewhat more viable, but most dual weapon styles are striking weapon and parrying weapon, possibly with a shift to spare weapon and close combat weapon. You parry with a main-gauche while you stab and slash with a rapier, until you go corps-a-corps at which point you stab with the main-gauche and hope your rapier isn’t in the way.

Dual wielding isn’t currently on the priority list for 0.E, though if someone wants to pick it up that could change.

[kuros]

Shields are available via one of the mods. It straps to one hand and arm, encumbering them but adding a high block chance. I started with Silat and was lucky enough to learn the Medieval Style, which has some reach attack weapons in it as well. I’m now keeping a shield in my Swagon (thanks, Aavak, for the name) for when I want to go spear & shield against certain enemies.

I’m not an expert on real life swordfighting, but most styles I see use one hand for a blocking blade, and the other for the actual attacks. You could simulate this in the current system by having a “weapon” that represents the two weapons held in each hand.

It seems like there is some kind of code for two-handed weapons vs one handed weapons already.

[QuietCoyote]

I feel like having a shield and a spear wouldn’t be very viable, as for most spears require two hands to wield, otherwise it would have to be a very encumbering shield, or maybe a buckler, with a debuff to blocking… My logic would be that if this is so viable in CDDA, why wouldn’t we see it in textbooks and such that people only used spears to fight each other in medieval times; and I wouldn’t know why shields wouldn’t be in (O.D, thats experimental right?) base game though… Could add more variety to zombies, with Riot zombies wielding riot shields and Tear gas hacks.
And only having a single weapon would be pretty hurtful towards immersion, and would be a ton to code, instead of just making a system where (Sorry for the bad example) x + x, x being any one-handed weapon; rather than dual katanas where it would only be two steel katanas, instead of budget steel, and diamond katana, or with weapons it only being dual wielded G18’s, rather than G18 + M1911…

[kuros]

I feel like having a shield and a spear wouldn’t be very viable, as for most spears require two hands

All I can say in response to that is “the Roman Legions.”

[TheMurderUnicorn]

Historically, spears were very frequently used with shields. Just because the sword is the most iconic melee weapon does not mean spears were not used for war. Hoplites, of course, the phalanx is the most obvious example.

[QuietCoyote]

Got me there, those are pilum though, which would usually be used as a javellin, in turn for them to use their gladiuses though…
or gladi?

[QuietCoyote]

Yeah, they were used frequently, I know that, however, most of the time it was with an item such as the in game awl pike (which would be very encumbersome combo to use), otherwise it would more likely be used as a javelin to throw, as the swords allowed for a greater range of movements and attacks. However, I wont lie about it being used more than my orginal post suggested… I just don’t want the in game meta to be cornered with reach attacks…
I guess it would make sense to add a movement debuff for moving in a corridor: like a needing a full space around the character to move easily, while every space taken up (sorta gauging off the advanced inventory as the areas that you cant place an object in) adds a small debuff to movement… That sounds pretty balancing, but would probably make CDDA lose most of its fanbase (Honestly not out of the ballpark I guess with how people replied to changing the knife spear to a fragile weapon), and be very hard to code…

[TheMurderUnicorn]

Reach attacks are already the meta.

I’m not sure what you meant by degrading mobility based on surrounding objects. Did you mean this as a way to inhibit spear usage? It’s considerably easier to use a spear or polearm in narrow corridors than it is to use a broadsword.

If we adjust movespeed based on nearby obstacles, we’d surely make it based on the weapon used, which would ultimately encourage spear usage. I’m all for making it more difficult to move if you’re adjacent to an enemy (or perhaps boost the enemies attack speed in that situation) to simulate something like the ‘attacks of opportunity’ from D&D.

[QuietCoyote]

True, but with how movement works, and how you can move 360 without much of an trouble at all, then a spear in a corridor would be great for funneling enemies, but would be pretty encumbersome to move in a narrow corridor with some about the same size as you, rather than a sword which is about half or less than your size (excluding zweihander). Maybe have a system with activating it to ready the spear to make reach attacks, and being able to place it back at your side to allow for a lesser movement debuff. Having this really wouldnt encourage spear usage, as it would make it harder to run away from an enemy unless you can tank the damage.
I suck at math, and apparently in 6 seconds you can walk almost over 27 feet, which would mean that most doors for a house are almost 27 feet long… I guess I did the most forbidden thing in CDDA and tried to use math to try and prove my points…
Math: checked the avg. walk speed (with wikipedia as source), using 3.1 mph and converting it to feet/second with a quick google showed to be exactly 4.54667 feet per second, which multiplied by 6 seconds ( since every move turn at 100 movement points is 6 seconds, or a turn.) would equal 27.28002 feet/ six seconds…
Feel free to tell me how bad I am at math and correct me…

[TheMurderUnicorn]

Well, I’m sure Mlangsdorf used a lot of math when it came to energy and vehicle parts. So, let’s not be quite so dismissive about things not making sense.

However, with movement speed, yes, math and hard numbers are not great. For example, part of your formula involves knowing the distance of any given tile. It’s been said before that tiles are not a set size, but are variable to suit whatever you’re working on. Hence why a squirrel and a human both take up one tile, or how a bike and a small vehicle are about the same length, despite their real-life counterparts being obviously different.

So I can’t speak too much to your exact math because the numbers aren’t precise. I would encourage you to sit in your chair and do nothing for six seconds. It’s longer than you think. I don’t know that I’d cover 27 feet in six seconds at a walk, but if I were bustling (but not running) away from zombies then maybe?

[mlangsdorf]

CDDA tiles have variable scale.

Kevin keeps talking about moving to 1 second turns, which would help a lot with respect to some things.

[redxlaser15]

Since you guys have been talking a bit about things like spears and shields, duel wielding, and such a little bit ago, I decided to makeThis thread.
I felt like it would be a nice way to still talk about all this and not clutter up this thread, as it is far more generic.

P.S. If I misunderstood all this or something, sorry about that. I’m an idiot sometimes

[QuietCoyote]

I think rather than creating 1 second turns, it would be better to make definite sizes for tiles, like every tile being 5 ft, or maybe even two ft, but that would be ripping out a major foundation in the game and replacing it with something a little sturdier, which even without knowing much about programming (other than your great introduction to JSON’s on github) would probably be not possible without halting the production of most things in the process, and also having to rework everything to fit in the new dimensions of tiles. (Not to mention with smaller dimensions, the the character would have to take up more than one tile…)
Yeah, in retrospect, this definently wont happen anywhere in the near (or even later) future…

[mlangsdorf]

The problem is that vehicle parts like doors have to take up a full tile, and while it’s reasonable for a vehicle door to be about 3’ long it’s not reasonable for it to be 3’ wide. If we moved to a strict tiles implementation, we could fudge this by going original X-Com style where walls were on the borders of tiles, not the center, but there’s no easy way to support console that way. And console support isn’t going away.

To a reasonable approximate, vehicles are 1m long per tile and variably wide per tile:

Tile Width	Meter Width	Width of each tile (m)
1	0.9	0.9
2	1.3	0.65
3	1.7	0.55
4	2.1	0.525
5	2.5	0.5
6	2.65	0.45
7	2.8	0.4
8	2.95	0.375
9	3.10	0.34

That table matches the width of vehicles in the game to their real world counterparts fairly closely, but it’s an example of the problem - how can 7 motorcycles, parked side by side, take up the same amount of space as single semi-rig tractor truck? It’s because the tiles aren’t consistently sized.

[Hof1993]

Dual wield a pistol and saber. Melee attacks default to the melee weapon instead of the pistol. Don’t know what that would involve but it worked for civil war officers.

[TheZoneWizard]

Dual wield of melee is a sound idea. Dual wield of fire arms is notoriously a bad idea. Should we be ABLE to hold 2 items? I think I covered that system with my throwing thread so I won’t go deep into it. But sure. Assuming my throwing thread frame came into being. Holding 2 guns seems legit. Firing them both too. Being able to hit anything after 10 inches away…well lotsa luck to you. I happen to be ambidextrous and have fired guns plenty of times. Not that I am a perfect marksmen from the get go. But I am just as good as anyone else to use as an example of how difficult it is to aim and shoot a target. Consider this. Firing both guns should be like not aiming beyond the general direction of the target. If that is worth doing for your character…well…I really dunno what else to say on that topic.

[QuietCoyote]

Yeah, Id sorta like to get this back to the main point that dual wielding would be cool, and would allow new metas to grab hold. It would alleviate the choke hold of reach attack weapons on the meta, otherwise with my suggestion is to make the character slower in tighter corridors. If that doesn’t sit too well with people, rather than getting rid of the movement debuff, have a system where activating the weapon places it by your side, but damage changes from a lot of pierce to a lot of blunt damage, and you cant make reach attacks, while activivating the spear again would ready the spear to add more pierce damage and allow reach attacks…

[DeadArsenal]

I think you might mean Greek phalanxes. Romans usually favored short swords, great shields, and javelins. Triarii, the older veteran soldiers, used spears though so you’re not entirely wrong.

[duhuh]

Flooding, sewage overflow, mudslide, tornado, fog near river, smog, tainted river, disasters, flu epidemic, water everywhere but not a drop to drink, survivors betraying each other, climate of fear, paranoia, mass hysteria, senseless rituals, castle doctrine, trespassers will be shot, refugee tent, despair and apathy.

[kuros]

Despair and apathy are already pretty fully implemented.