Thoughts on Cephalopods

First post here, so hello! And big thanks to all the devs, this game is fantastic.

Anyway, been playing a fair bit lately, and especially been having a lot of fun as an octopus-mutant (now sadly deceased) so have some thoughts on the mechanics and balancing of that:

[ul][li]Threshold breaching - Maybe a consequence of cephalopod not having that many mutations, or maybe I’m just not understanding the threshold mechanics, but it seems really difficult to breach it. I’ve taken cephalopod serum by the gallon over about an in-game year or more and got plenty of “you feel something deep inside yearning to be free” but still never managed to get the threshold. I even pretty often found myself having dreams for other categories, like feline, raptor or bird, despite having 90+% of the cephalopod mutations and very few others.[/li]
[li]Shell - I think this is pretty cripplingly unbalanced at the minute. First of all, destroying all torso armour (without even returning any scraps of leather or etc) with no warning or way of predicting it (unless you’ve had it before) is pretty horrible if you’ve got e.g. survivor armour, survivor trenchcoat and a bunch of survivor bags. And honestly, is it really sensible that the shell grows so instantaneously that you don’t have a chance to take your clothes off? Admittedly a fun mental image.
I’m also not convinced that the shell’s well balanced once you’ve got it. Doesn’t let you wear anything on your torso except a cloak, bathrobe, and in lategame an XL survivor suit. That’s reaaaaally limiting. Can’t even wear bags. That means unless you’re lucky enough to have a bunch of drop-leg pouches, you’re limited to about 40 inventory space max, which is really crippling and basically unplayable if you’re a ranged character and don’t have a vehicle. Not sure it gives that much bonus armour either? Another problem, asides from just the lack of utility or versatility, is it means there’s a massive gap in your options between ‘leather cloak/bathrobe’ and XL survivor suit. Some intermediary choices would be good.
How to balance it? Maybe more storage space, but I’d say just give bags the allows mutant anatomy flag. Probably worth adding more XL options, to be honest. Is it a deliberate balance decision that the regular survivor suit is the only one with an XL version? I notice there are XL versions of the different masks already, but not suits, gloves, boots etc. Certainly an XL trenchcoat and XL survivor trenchcoat seem like an obvious choice imo.[/li]
[li]Tentacles - My understanding is that other than primate hands, octopus tentacles are about the most dextrous and best suited for tool use of any animal’s appendages. As such, is the hand encumbrance malus appropriate? Or does that not actually do much and is made up for by the dexterity bonus? I wonder also if the 4 and 8 tentacle upgrades should get more dexterity than the initial version? It seems wrong that their only bonus is to melee combat - I wonder about maybe even something like faster crafting? (‘many tentacles make light work’).[/li]
[li]Nicitating membrane - cephalopods need this or an equivalent. No use being able to swim and breathe underwater if you can’t see a damn thing. Technically I don’t think cephalopods have a nicitating membrane as such, but obviously their eyes are adapted for being underwater. Could even be worth giving them their own set of eye traits as I think their eyes are quite particular, although I don’t know the biology well enough to suggest specifics. Could also be worth giving them bulging eyes.[/li]
[li]Poisonous - I think most or all octopuses are poisonous, so this might be worth having.[/li]
[li]Carnivore - again, I think all cephalopods are carnivorous (or at least primarily so?). Maybe a moral bonus for eating fish?[/li]
[li]Distributed Neurology - Octopodes in particular have a very unusual neuroanatomy, with their tentacles almost having ‘a mind of their own’, so to speak. Could be worth giving them a weaker version of this trait?[/li]
[li]Amorphous body - maybe they should be able to get this post-threshold? Cephalopods are about as flexible and amorphous as multicellular life gets.[/li]
[li]New trait idea (shared with fish): Deap-Sea Gigantism - similar to the ursine/cattle size traits, but instead of the strength bonus maybe extra health? Or maybe better cold-resistance? I think that’s thought to be one of the main reasons for deap-sea gigantism irl (surface-to-volume ratios and all that), and would help them survive in riverbeds where there’s no shelter and with such few clothing options.[/li]
[li]Briefcases! I guess this is just an oversight, but I think at the minute they’re treated as gloves and don’t have the mutated anatomy tag, so you can’t carry a briefcase if you’ve got tentacle arms. I think the same’s probably true of bindles? I mainly just care because I want a smartly dressed stylish octopus with a briefcase :3 Also the shell mutation limits their storage options so much, they kinda need it.[/li]
[li]What’s the twisty passages thing about? Google tells me it’s a reference to Zork, but I can’t work out what the connection is to cephalopods?[/li][/ul]

Anyway, uhh, that’s kind of a lot of words, and all sort of the top of my head, so I might have some more to add in a bit, but yeah. Thoughts? Comments?

I have to say though, I never thought in a million years I’d play a game where I mutate into an octopus. Love it. Thank you so much for making my twisted Lovecraftian nightmares a reality <3

EDIT: For my next character: evolve mouth tentacles and bat wings and commence building of a cyclopean dwelling of insane geometry at the bottom of a river/in the sewer, y/n?

no, they are definitely edible and have no poison afaik.
For the rest, someone who knowns more about Cephalopods in cata should answer.

Welcome to the forums baldamundo.

[quote=“jcd, post:2, topic:7635”]no, they are definitely edible and have no poison afaik.
For the rest, someone who knowns more about Cephalopods in cata should answer.

Welcome to the forums baldamundo.[/quote]
Cheers!

And I know Wikipedia’s hardly authoritative, but: “All octopuses have venom, but few are fatally dangerous. The greater blue-ringed octopus, however, is considered to be one of the most venomous animals known; the venom of one is enough to kill ten grown men.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_attack#Venom

Hand encumbrance in game only affects your reload speed and throwing accuracy. I can understand the throwing one being slightly worse for squiddles, and if you’re loading single rounds (Which the Survivor is doing, even with external magazine fed guns), I think you’d lose a touch of the manual dexterity required for that.

I was thinking tentacles could use a dedicated martial art perhaps, learned after a certain skill level.

dang, i never knew that… round here, at any rate, we are lucky enough that octopus and squids are all edible and harmless to man.

Fried over a fire, and with a little lemon, they are a treat. :slight_smile:

Maybe Brawling should change to represent the differences between fighting with two arms and fighting with eight tentacles? The problem would be people with several mutations that allow different styles, so maybe some styles specific to a small number of mutations, as having tentacles.

Head of Mutations, responding.

Thanks for reporting the Threshold issue. I’ll look into implementing some of your suggestions re broken-out mutations, as folks who focus on one category should generally be able to breach within 5-10 injections.

Shell is about the toughest “natural” armor available, but I’m aware that barring Torso gear can be a problem. More to the point, its shape means the traditional argument for belted-layer stuff (just strap it around you wherever it now fits) may not work as well. (HUGE/_OK also bars torso gear, but then you’re a scaled-up humanoid Critter.)
If you or someone else can whip up a convincing gear rig or other necessary niche-filler for a squid-type critter, I’ll be glad to take a look; however, not everything can or will be accepted as an XL model. SHELL’s downside is the no-torso restriction, so that needs to retain some punch.

Tentacles: Conversely, Cephalopods get the Insane (+7) levels of +DX and +IN mutations post-threshold. The hand encumbrance comes from the fact that while your arm equivalents are far more flexible, you completely lack hands, fingers, and opposable thumbs. You might reality-check reloading, etc by locking your fingers together and your thumbs to the side of your hand. You may bend your fingers, but must do so as one unit: mitten style!
Any buff to the DX bonus would be paid for 1:1 with hand encumbrance. Sound good?
Tentacle/Crafting: perhaps post-thresh. Coordinating 4x as many limbs should need some mental adaptation for detail work.

Slime post-thresh trait crossover: probably not, at least not sharing the same trait.

Briefcase: Sure, those can be Oversized.

MA style: Ironically, that would be a LOT easier if we hadn’t JSONed martial arts. As is, I’d have to finagle some sort of check in the JSON-handler to make sure its techniques were only available if one has X tentacles. Not impossible, but not trivial and not a priority. Sorry.

And welcome to the forums.

Well, I attempted to make a basic martial arts style for it and submitted a pull request. The way I did it was adding a style during ARM_TENTACLE in the mutations.cpp, but it would be nice to be able to base it around the number of tentacles. It’s currently nothing all that special, but I was mostly trying to wrap my head around using GitHub and coding for CDDA. :slight_smile:

Any thoughts on what a tentacle style should do? I’ve got it adding a +1 dodge bonus on move, a small accuracy boost on dodge, gave it a rapid strike, a grab (later upgraded to longer stunning wrap), and a feint and a counter. I was mostly going for a dodgy octopus style more than anything, but I could also see a centipede style working. Honestly, just straight centipede with tentacles seems like it’d be amazing anyway.

Octopuses with their flexible bodies and many limbs would make awesome wrestlers.

One of my favourite character builds is actually a cephalopod with Ninjutsu training. It makes you completely, 100% silent when fighting in melee, and combined with nightvision allows you to roam around a town at night, backstabbing zombies largely unchecked :smiley:

I’ve also gone a cephalopod Bionic Agent called Blasto, though that didn’t get very far :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, Distributed Neurology version of Cephalopods could decrease the hand enc? So you first mutation is tentacle arms is okay for a human-mind to control. The 4-arms should come with more penalty (because you don’t really have to focus for multi-tasking). After 4-arms you can get the Distributed Neurology.

Being able to more precicely control your appendages doesn’t change the fact that you’re interacting with things designed for beings with opposable thumbs by using tentacles, there’s a mismatch there that just isn’t going to go away.

Are there any abominations/monsters that should be cephalopods? Maybe a “sea” biome at least 15x15 overworld tiles, and the cephalopods hang out on the beach. A mind flayer could also be a horrific enemy to engage. You could forget visited map sections and recipes, have lower int temporarily until it rots your brain, etc.

[quote=“KA101, post:8, topic:7635”]Shell is about the toughest “natural” armor available, but I’m aware that barring Torso gear can be a problem. More to the point, its shape means the traditional argument for belted-layer stuff (just strap it around you wherever it now fits) may not work as well. (HUGE/_OK also bars torso gear, but then you’re a scaled-up humanoid Critter.)
If you or someone else can whip up a convincing gear rig or other necessary niche-filler for a squid-type critter, I’ll be glad to take a look; however, not everything can or will be accepted as an XL model. SHELL’s downside is the no-torso restriction, so that needs to retain some punch.[/quote]

At the risk of side-tracking the thread, I wonder if we could get some insight into the current logic/design philosophy/whatever behind which items have XL versions (both in terms of realism and game-balance)? So, for instance, currently there are XL versions of the vanilla survivor suit, gloves, helmet, boots and mask. There are also XL versions of the survivor fire-mask, dive-mask and winter-mask, but not any other parts of those sets. It’s not immediately obvious to me why that should be the case, so it’d be helpful to have some insight, not just for understanding the current situation, but so we know the ground-rules for further suggestions on the topic. Cheers.

[quote=“KA101, post:8, topic:7635”]Tentacles: Conversely, Cephalopods get the Insane (+7) levels of +DX and +IN mutations post-threshold. The hand encumbrance comes from the fact that while your arm equivalents are far more flexible, you completely lack hands, fingers, and opposable thumbs. You might reality-check reloading, etc by locking your fingers together and your thumbs to the side of your hand. You may bend your fingers, but must do so as one unit: mitten style!
Any buff to the DX bonus would be paid for 1:1 with hand encumbrance. Sound good?[/quote]

Yeah, that sounds very sensible.

I don’t know how feasible this is code-wise, but perhaps it could be balanced by faster crafting speed but increased difficulty and risk of failure? So the effect would be to make tentacles characters good at mass-producing simple things, but poorer at complex things with fine details. E.g. you can very easily roast eight pieces of meat over a fire at once, but lack of opposable thumbs and such makes high quality electronics or tailoring much more difficult

I figured that’d be your answer. Maybe weaker cephalopod-only versions could be worth thinking about though.

EDIT: just stumbled across https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=949eYdEz3Es which sort of illustrates how something like ‘amorphous body’ could be appropriate

Thanks! :slight_smile:

Another very minor thing - currently tentacled characters can wear handwraps, but not foot-rags. To my mind at least, that seems inconsistent. And with nothing on your feet but tentacles stockings it gets awful cold in the winter :c

Also, I guess this was a bug, but I had a character where I evolved padded feet from leg tentacles (which removed the leg-tentacle mutations), allowing me to wear boots and socks, but when I used purifier and lost the padded feet and regained the tentacles, it didn’t auto-remove my boots, so I could keep on wearing them as long as I didn’t remove them manually.

And on the martial arts front - it’s worth noting that the Zui Quan drunken boxing style currently works very well with the cephalopod intelligence bonuses. And if you’ve ever watched how an octopus moves, honestly I think ‘drunken boxing’ is hella appropriate.

To further side-track, I find the XL recipes a little tedious and unnecessary. It would make more sense to have a new tag for clothes made by you, specifically for you and whatever mutated anatomy you might have. So, you’d have regular clothing, (fits) clothing (found, and in your size), and (tailored?) for clothing that you’ve made. This way, if you make an item that can accommodate mutation, it makes it tailored and you can automatically wear it, without having to learn a separate recipe for essentially the same item. The only caveat to this would be taking size into account for the components needed to make the tailored item.

I think the other caveat–the one we’re taking for granted here–is the complexity of the code we’d need to write to revamp the clothing sizing code so that modifications for mutations would be made on a case-by-case basis.

XL stuff: has to be something that is needed for a particular purpose or to access a given area. XL gas masks are for the multitude of categories that can’t fit a conventional one over their muzzle, for example. An XL chest rig or armor rig would probably be acceptable: horse barding, etc is a real thing.

XL is not fashionable, nor is it widespread or available in stores. It’s something you or another mutant made to help you get through life.

Sure we could make a Tailored tag. Problem is that it would carry over: if I tailor something to fit me, take it off, and then become HUGE or grow a SHELL, that Tailored tag is still there and the gear still fits OK despite the fact that I’m about 5-20 sizes larger.

Originally I had HUGE just strip all fit-tags from worn gear (I realize the problem here would still remain), but that crashed DDA in testing.

While I can see that explains the masks, why do vanilla XL survivor suit/gloves/boots count as needed?

While I can see that explains the masks, why do vanilla XL survivor suit/gloves/boots count as needed?[/quote]

Cold weather protection and armor, generally. Someone wants to make better tentacle gear, by all means feel free.