So I’m considering making a full list of martial arts for the post humans of Cataclysm. I’ve started work on one for the cephalopod line called tenta-fu (name WIP, suggestions welcome) and submitted a preliminary pull request. I’ve got some plans for other lines as well.
Cattle - largely defensive, bonuses for staying still, bonuses to damage blocked after blocking, and maybe a hard hitting brutal attack after blocking x number of attacks
Slime - versatile aoe attacks (spin, wide, impale), movement bonus of some sort.
Lizard - similar to viper perhaps?
Ursine - offensive counter part to cattle. Attack bonuses after blocking, some powerful swipes and stun, maybe a slow powerful block counter?
Spider - similar to leopard, bonuses for timing strikes well
Raptor - brutal and fast, but with some penalties to defenses
So yeah, definitely early stages, but I figured I’d solicit some feedback before I code too much.
I have the tenta-fu being unlocked at either arm tentacles or 4 tentacles, but I was thinking of putting the other styles to be learned at threshold mutations. If anyone has any suggestions, either mechanical or flavorwise, input is very welcome!
I actually kinda like the idea of all of them being post-threshold, including tentacle-fu.
1 - it gives a nice bonus for actually GOING past thresh
2 - as a result of being post-thresh, and thus hard to get, we’d have an excuse to give it some fairly strong abilities, as well as moves that tie into the whole mutation line.
3 - as going thresh is irreversible, it solves the problem of getting the MA form, then losing the mutations and keeping the form.
Ok, I’ll look into rebalancing things around post threshold. I’d been using other styles as a guide, so it’ll be a little trickier figuring them out for higher levels. It’ll give a lot more options though.
So far, I’ve planned them all as unarmed, but I could see weapons working too (large blunt weapons for cattle/ursine, knives for spiders, maybe eskrima swords for raptor…)
MA seems like the sort of thing you use because you don’t have teeth, claws, etc, and I’m really not sold on separate styles for each and every bloody threshold.
Especially given that breaching the threshold makes you a Critter, and no longer human. A wolf can trip someone, true, but I wouldn’t expect a paw swipe followed up by a kick, and then some other combination hit.
Think less “bear karate chop!” and more additional special attacks that could be used by a sufficiently mutated survivor. Less “wolf kick!” more “bonus bite attack as you’re running up to a target”. You seem to be the head of mutation, so I’ll defer to you on flavor.
I do still think some sort of style or even just additional wrap attacks for at least tentacles might be a nice addition. Agree/disagree?
[quote=“jokermatt999, post:6, topic:7641”]Think less “bear karate chop!” and more additional special attacks that could be used by a sufficiently mutated survivor. Less “wolf kick!” more “bonus bite attack as you’re running up to a target”. You seem to be the head of mutation, so I’ll defer to you on flavor.
I do still think some sort of style or even just additional wrap attacks for at least tentacles might be a nice addition. Agree/disagree?[/quote]
I guess we are talking here more about Natural Styles and not Martial Styles: not something learned and passed by - wait, animals learn to hunt thr - anyway, it’s more of a way of attacking born through experience and instinct, instead of something created by lots of examination and refinement through centuries.
But agree in case of flavor - in fact, if thresholding means becoming a Critter and not a human anymore, the flavor would have to be there, because it’s weird to think in a big wolf punching .-. In other words, maybe the Natural Style would substitute the Normal style?
[quote=“Wanderer, post:7, topic:7641”][quote=“jokermatt999, post:6, topic:7641”]Think less “bear karate chop!” and more additional special attacks that could be used by a sufficiently mutated survivor. Less “wolf kick!” more “bonus bite attack as you’re running up to a target”. You seem to be the head of mutation, so I’ll defer to you on flavor.
I do still think some sort of style or even just additional wrap attacks for at least tentacles might be a nice addition. Agree/disagree?[/quote]
I guess we are talking here more about Natural Styles and not Martial Styles: not something learned and passed by - wait, animals learn to hunt thr - anyway, it’s more of a way of attacking born through experience and instinct, instead of something created by lots of examination and refinement through centuries.
But agree in case of flavor - in fact, if thresholding means becoming a Critter and not a human anymore, the flavor would have to be there, because it’s weird to think in a big wolf punching .-. In other words, maybe the Natural Style would substitute the Normal style?[/quote]
Yeah. From what (little) I’ve read, wolves have pretty effective pack-attacking behavior, but it’s possible to jam them up by simply standing there, rather than running. “Yeah, who’s first?”
Hence why I’m not sold on new MA styles for post-thresh. Additional attacks can be attached to traits directly, and currently the generic unarmed attacks don’t say how you slice/clobber/etc with generic unarmed attacks.
Re tentacles: I’m thinking active mutation. Say, latch onto someone with your tentacles (minimum of two needed to latch, so becomes available at 4 Tentacles) and then either choke 'em out if they breathe, or just pummel if we’re talking zeds?
Most post-threshold mutations are still reversible. I remember getting the “huge” mutation (which is ursine or cattle post-threshold) and then realizing it’s reversible. Lost all of its charm to me because I could revert basically all the way back to starting traits despite having the “Bear” mutation.
Yes Zireal, that’s what I was basically thinking, less of complicated martial art and more along the lines of learning to better use your new natural weapons/form. Mechanics-wise, a martial style seems a better fit, since I was still thinking of buffs for various actions, e.g. a cattle or ursine mutant would probably be better off standing their ground and fighting, but a bird would benefit from moving and dodging more. It’s already in there somewhat via stats, but I think an explicit “you’ve adapted to this new form better and learned what it can do” would be nice. It could even just be some more flavor text without too much mechanically.
Not all mutations are implied to be simply “critters” either. Both the cephalopod and slime line give direct intelligence bonuses, and I could definitely see those bodies requiring more adapting to than say, an ursine learning to paw smash better.
On a less general note, I definitely think adding a wrap attack to tentacles in melee.cpp would be a nice addition regardless.
[quote=“jokermatt999, post:12, topic:7641”]Yes Zireal, that’s what I was basically thinking, less of complicated martial art and more along the lines of learning to better use your new natural weapons/form. Mechanics-wise, a martial style seems a better fit, since I was still thinking of buffs for various actions, e.g. a cattle or ursine mutant would probably be better off standing their ground and fighting, but a bird would benefit from moving and dodging more. It’s already in there somewhat via stats, but I think an explicit “you’ve adapted to this new form better and learned what it can do” would be nice. It could even just be some more flavor text without too much mechanically.
Not all mutations are implied to be simply “critters” either. Both the cephalopod and slime line give direct intelligence bonuses, and I could definitely see those bodies requiring more adapting to than say, an ursine learning to paw smash better.
On a less general note, I definitely think adding a wrap attack to tentacles in melee.cpp would be a nice addition regardless.[/quote]
I guess it depends of each case, how much changes the mutations bring: if a Ursine post-threshold has enough abilities and skills gained of his mutations, maybe what’s needed is only flavor text. (By the way, sorry about the punch commentary before, i’m using now too much of Brawling + Broadsword and forgot how Normal style was :/) But in cases where the mutations change the body but doesn’t bring anything else to the table, maybe a Martial Style is required.
And of course, not every threshold needs a specific MA. At least, Medical, Alpha and Troglobite surely doesn’t, and i don’t see why Elf-a should have one.
I will try to do some research in the next days regarding animals and how they hunt, to see what’s more needed in each case: mutations with effects in how you fight, or Martial Arts, mechanic-wise.
[quote=“Wanderer, post:13, topic:7641”][quote=“jokermatt999, post:12, topic:7641”]Yes Zireal, that’s what I was basically thinking, less of complicated martial art and more along the lines of learning to better use your new natural weapons/form. Mechanics-wise, a martial style seems a better fit, since I was still thinking of buffs for various actions, e.g. a cattle or ursine mutant would probably be better off standing their ground and fighting, but a bird would benefit from moving and dodging more. It’s already in there somewhat via stats, but I think an explicit “you’ve adapted to this new form better and learned what it can do” would be nice. It could even just be some more flavor text without too much mechanically.
Not all mutations are implied to be simply “critters” either. Both the cephalopod and slime line give direct intelligence bonuses, and I could definitely see those bodies requiring more adapting to than say, an ursine learning to paw smash better.
On a less general note, I definitely think adding a wrap attack to tentacles in melee.cpp would be a nice addition regardless.[/quote]
I guess it depends of each case, how much changes the mutations bring: if a Ursine post-threshold has enough abilities and skills gained of his mutations, maybe what’s needed is only flavor text. (By the way, sorry about the punch commentary before, i’m using now too much of Brawling + Broadsword and forgot how Normal style was :/) But in cases where the mutations change the body but doesn’t bring anything else to the table, maybe a Martial Style is required.
And of course, not every threshold needs a specific MA. At least, Medical, Alpha and Troglobite surely doesn’t, and i don’t see why Elf-a should have one.
I will try to do some research in the next days regarding animals and how they hunt, to see what’s more needed in each case: mutations with effects in how you fight, or Martial Arts, mechanic-wise.[/quote]
Mutations like Predator and Saprophage might indicate how I handled the “critter” aspect. Nothing explicit, but notice how presumptions change.
I could accept folks getting their Brawling replaced with some other style that similarly requires significant time sunk into leveling it up.
Murphy: Issue there is that a mutation has to be fairly significant to be irreversible. I’ll see about making the _OK versions of LARGE and HUGE permanent, though, if that helps.
I think they were permanent at some point, but then someone realized how the player would revert everything else and keep the huge_ok for its strength bonus. Of course, if he/she doesn’t mind losing out on vehicle and clothing avaliability.
Mutations are a gamble and every time you mutate, you risk losing whatever ones you already have (either directly, or because you’ll be forced to purify yourself after gaining a very bad one). Having a positive trait that cannot be lost raises game balance issues.
By the way, it’s why I always prefer bionics over mutations. With bionics, once you’ve got it, you can usually keep it – whereas mutations are this wibbly-wobbly everchanging stuff, and even when you get lucky, one mutation inducing monster can ruin all your work.
On further thought, I think a better solution might be to attach the new moves to individual mutations, and have the moves “unlock” when either post threshold or a certain unarmed skill level is reached. This way, you gain the base mutation, and it gives more effects if you “know” how to use it more effectively.
I have a suggestion which I guess is more far reaching but sort of addresses the problem, so because mutations are effectively random why not have a mutation level that determines the range of mutations that can be achieved, sort of like how you have prerequisites for certain mutations but have it be like a branching tree, then your mutation level can be used to determine what kind of abilities/skills you get for melee combat
Just a suggestion
I will try to do some research in the next days regarding animals and how they hunt, to see what’s more needed in each case: mutations with effects in how you fight, or Martial Arts, mechanic-wise.[/quote]
RL shown up hard, and so my research stopped soon after it was started
But from i managed to check, and discussion here, i like a lot the idea of
since it gives flavor and utility to the mutations, and it all goes building up to the threshold. I just don’t know of how many new moves/passives can exist: lizards tend to use one-two strategies that work really well, not a myriad of moves. So maybe one move at start, maybe one at a certain skill level, one more in the threshold and that’s it. Existant Martial Styles could combine with mutations, or the opposite, being locked off until enough Unarmed Combat reaches a good enough level to the survivor to understand how both mix with each other.
Regarding Brawling being substituted, i’m really thinking now in the opposite direction and TAKING away Brawling in critter-thresholding: Brawling is a style born of having to defend yourself against monsters using a human body… which, after so much mutating, simply is NOT the case anymore, and the compensation is already covered by mutations + thresholding. It also helps with the flavor of not being a human anymore, but something else.
And following KA101 suggestion, after some time fighting with the mind of a critter, the new style shows up, covering post-thresholding moves.
Btw, I have closed my pull request about this, so if someone with a better handle on flavor/canon of mutations wants to code up something for this, the opportunity is wide open.
[quote=“Murphy, post:15, topic:7641”]I think they were permanent at some point, but then someone realized how the player would revert everything else and keep the huge_ok for its strength bonus. Of course, if he/she doesn’t mind losing out on vehicle and clothing avaliability.
Mutations are a gamble and every time you mutate, you risk losing whatever ones you already have (either directly, or because you’ll be forced to purify yourself after gaining a very bad one). Having a positive trait that cannot be lost raises game balance issues.
By the way, it’s why I always prefer bionics over mutations. With bionics, once you’ve got it, you can usually keep it – whereas mutations are this wibbly-wobbly everchanging stuff, and even when you get lucky, one mutation inducing monster can ruin all your work.[/quote]
Which is why i think it would be cool if we could turn our current mutations into chargen traits to which we would fallback with purifying (although i am not sure how purifier works … i kinda imagine them using your dna to repair damage … although i might be horribly wrong seeing as it doesn t use any part of your boidy to suggest it would use your dna… was just the most sensical thing for me as it restores chargen traits which shouldn t come from a random back to human mutagen imo)
This way it would a lot of flavour and usabillity for me to the mutations.
I could say yes i am this or that in dna as well.
If a mutating mob hits me and i loose something i had lots of time invested into i could purify back to it…
You just wouldn t be able to püurify back to human anymore then though…
Would love to see Some chemical/mutagen coctail that does this for me … <3
