At one point in time, when Cataclysm was much simpler, following the rogue-like standard tradition of perma-death was a fair design choice. But overtime Cataclysm has evolved in to a game with much more content, a lot of which is reasonably time consuming, and a great deal of adventure to be had. I believe an entry barrier to the game in it’s current rendition is the non-optional perma-death. Nothing will turn away a new player more than being brutally murdered by RNG after their first small amount of success. As I’ve seen many Let’s Players save-scum to try and salvage situations that go horribly bad for no reason of their own fault, the time has come for a Quick Save/Quick Load option, Hardcore Mode, and the removal of auto-save on death.
Permanent death in rogue-likes is a common feature, but the difference is in the amount of content, and options presented to players. It is common ground for players to spend weeks, or perhaps longer on a single character, whereas in more conventionally rogue-likes the standard time spent on one character usually never exceeds a few hours, to perhaps a day, depending on how fast, and aggressive their play-style is.
In order to lower the entry barrier for newer players, as well as allow players the actual expectation to be able to see much of the game’s content without fully relying on the gods of RNG to bless them, I would like, if possible, to see the addition of the features previously mentioned, Quick Save, Quick Load, Hardcore Mode, and the removal of auto-save on death.
[ol][li]Quick Save and Quick Load are self explainatory. [/li]
[li]Hardcore Mode would allow people who enjoy grueling perma-death in such a vast game to continue to satisfy their masochistic desires.[/li]
[li]The replacement of auto-save on death with the ability to instead load last save, and perhaps the additional ability to accept defeat would work in unison with the Quick Save/Load feature to allow players another chance, if they accept it.[/li][/ol]
In order to balance Hardcore Mode and make it actually worthwhile to pursue I would suggest something along the lines of a full on Hard Mode that has 1.75x normal spawn rates, full perma-death, 0.82x normal item spawn, and a slight increase in the generation of rare facilities (such as the Public Works, and FEMA Camp), map spawns (like military crash sites, and scientists), and artifacts. This makes the world substantially more difficult to survive in by normal standards, but much more rewarding end-game potential and the fear of death that will make it exciting. To prevent save-scumming I would remove the ability to shift-S and save, and replace that with the ability to save at a bed, or sleeping spot, that you could define as your “Home” that can only be changed once per 3 day period or something similar.
Of course since this game has excellent customisation and thats a lot of us love it, all of these options would be configurable in world generation and the options menu.
Most of the ground work to implement these features appears to be already within the game, so to implement them it should not take a substantial amount of work.
My answer is simple, elegant, and has proven itself to work in the past:
Savescum harder
No really, I for one enjoy permadeath, and the game is built around the concept of permadeath. If you think a situation is completely hopeless for your character its because you made a bad choice in the near past, the only situation in which the game will screw you is if a hulk/jabberwock spawns near your shelter, and that almost never happens.
No.
Simply because you can explore a building, die from whatever reason and quick-load a save. Ta-da you know where the good equipment is.
“Nothing interesting in the north road, better quick-load and take the south bridge!”
“Bionic installation/mutation gone wrong? Just quick-load a save and try again” (happened in FO3 with the conversation stuff) This applies to conversations and crafting (and possibly other things I cant think of)
Fallout 3/NV has a quick-load option because all the rooms aren’t randomly generated. That mininuke is going to appear in the same spot everytime you start a game.
Permanent death is an integral part of what makes Cataclysm a game of survival. There is no “optional permadeath” in Dwarf Fortress either, and if any game has come over any complexity threshold, it’s that game. Optional permadeath should only exist in simple games, where there exists a defined goal and the player works his way towards it by shooting everything in his path (exaggerating here, of course, but I can’t put it into better words right now). Games where the focus is survival really lose their essence if you are able to just reload a save after you accidentally get yourself killed.
I would not be against such feature. In the end, it is user who decide if he is using it or not. If implemented as optional toggle, it might be useful for testing purposes.
I am against making other changes to the game, “because save is possible now” though.
By the way, isn’t quick save and quick load implemented already, without key binding?
Step one:
Save game before doing anything too risky (Kinda like periodically saving your work in art/music/word)
Step two:
Move save folder to desktop
Step three:
Continue playing until you feel the need to update your backup save (go back to step one) or die (continue to step four)
Step Four:
In the event of death, remove saved game from folder and move to trash then copy the back-up to the folder and either try again or avoid danger.
-ALTERNATE METHOD-
Backup your Uberdeath Car as a modded in vehicle which you can spawn with the debug menu, as well as your “loadout” as a profession.
However, having done both methods myself, I find that in most cases it’s more fun to keep permadeath a thing with a few exceptions. (For example that time that fucking NPC rolled lucky and blew my brains out with a fucking .22 pistol.)
Because permadeath is more than a punishment for stupidity.
By having permadeath in the game the player will be encouraged to make tactical decisions regarding his course of action. I myself am currently thinking about how to sneak into town best to grab a masive cache of ammo and tools i discovered but was unable to bring with me during the zombie-less start of my game.
But if you really don’t want permadeath:
And finally, this will sum up my thoughts on permadeath pretty well.
I’m disappointed in your replies. Four out of the six replies basically sum up to:
“No, because I don’t want to do it, it should not be a feature, but here is a long, and annoying way to do it anyways.”
No one will debate your personal preference, nor would anyone have a right to do so. My suggestion was to merely make the game more accessible to a broader range of people without sacrificing the integrity of the game. I enjoy perma-death, as well. I would play on the Hardcore Mode that I previously mentioned. I’ve been playing Dwarf Fortress for 6 years and I understand the feeling of accomplishment a difficult task brings to a game.
But is it wrong to make an attempt to make a game accessible to others who may not feel the same way? I think CDDA is a fantastic game; the code is clean, and the design is sound. It has reasonable capabilities to becoming a simple game engine for total conversion mods because of this. That is another topic, however. I submitted a suggestion to increase it’s accessibility and a way to maintain the game’s integrity for those who prefer a higher difficulty and not a single reply with a constructive argument or suggestion was given or even a counter-arguement beyond “I don’t play that way, so screw everyone else.” and I find that rather unproductive.
[quote=“Reservoir, post:3, topic:5464”]No.
Simply because you can explore a building, die from whatever reason and quick-load a save. Ta-da you know where the good equipment is.
“Nothing interesting in the north road, better quick-load and take the south bridge!”
“Bionic installation/mutation gone wrong? Just quick-load a save and try again” (happened in FO3 with the conversation stuff) This applies to conversations and crafting (and possibly other things I cant think of)
Fallout 3/NV has a quick-load option because all the rooms aren’t randomly generated. That mininuke is going to appear in the same spot everytime you start a game.[/quote]
The basis of your argument is near to a philosophical discussion on the morality of allowing people to make their own decisions with the tools provided to them. You seem to say that because people will misuse a feature, regardless of those who may use it “correctly” (who decide that, I will never know), that no one should have access to that feature. Because a man named Ted doesn’t like difficult games, but likes zombies, and he may load a quick save if something goes wrong, that no one else should be allowed to have access to that feature because you feel that he would be misusing it. Then is that not the case with a variety of other implemented, customization game features such as setting your max skill points, or adjusting item and zombie spawn rates? These should be removed from the game then, as well, because these could possibly be misused by people to make the game easier, and not up to the standard of difficult set by yourself.
You’re the only one who, to now, has actually provided a strong counter-argument to my suggestion. Thank you. However, then, if my goal would be to increase accessibility of the game to the vastly larger group of people who prefer games that do not penalize them to that extent, do you have a suggestion how that might be accomplished?
Also, haven’t spent a great deal of time researching the progression of Cataclysm’s design, many features have been implemented that allow a form of difficulty manipulation now found in Dwarf Fortress either, and that the DF community responded to this by creating the Lazy Newbie Mod Pack and Masterwork, both of which allows manipulation of variables not made easily accessible to the user. Do you feel Cataclysm is different, even though implementation of variables such as item spawn rates, zombie spawn rates, and default skill point levels would clearly, at least to me, seem to provide evidence to the contrary? I understand that perma-death, a very widely accepted and criticized feature, is sacred to the definition of what a rogue-like is, but as I presented a way to not only keep perma-death, but allow those who do not prefer it to play the game their way, I am unsure as to where the problem lies beyond, as stated in the previous quote, a philosophical discussion on the morality of providing potentially misused tools to everyone instead of reserving the right to distribute those “features” to who “we” (still unsure who that is) decide, a discussion, I might add, which is both above, and beyond the scope of this game (or is it? I suppose we’ll find out).
[quote=“Robik, post:5, topic:5464”]I would not be against such feature. In the end, it is user who decide if he is using it or not. If implemented as optional toggle, it might be useful for testing purposes.
I am against making other changes to the game, “because save is possible now” though.
By the way, isn’t quick save and quick load implemented already, without key binding?[/quote]
I’m not entirely sure. From reviewing the systems already in the game, even if the feature was not already fully implemented it would only be a few steps away from being able to be introduced. I’m not sure if only adding a quick save/load feature would be good, though, without offering an option to disable it such as hardcore mode to remove any temptation, or moral ambiguity it could cause.
I fully agree perma-death should stay a thing. It’s an integral part of this game, as it is in all rogue-likes. Which is why I suggested that if a quick save/load feature (which you’ve already proven can be accomplished, but with a minor annoyance to only those who would prefer to utilize it, people who would surely be turned off, as they are, to being forced in to some kind of self-righteous punishment doled out by those who feel perma-death is more important and that all who dare play cataclysm should be subjected to it) that also a Hardcore Mode would be implemented for those who do not wish, me included, to use a quick save/load feature.
So as you’ve stated, it’s both possible and would be helpful in a few situations, I could only assume that if implementation of it would be done correctly then you’d have no problem with it? Then what would you consider the correct way to implement this feature in to game, and what concerns have you? Do you have other ways to achieve the same goal of making the game more accessible?
[quote=“Adrian, post:7, topic:5464”]No.
Because permadeath is more than a punishment for stupidity.
By having permadeath in the game the player will be encouraged to make tactical decisions regarding his course of action. I myself am currently thinking about how to sneak into town best to grab a masive cache of ammo and tools i discovered but was unable to bring with me during the zombie-less start of my game.[/quote]
I believe my first 2 responses also cover any response I would have to this reply as well. Perhaps more so due to your use of the phrase “punishment for stupidity” which, in this case, would only apply to those would play this game, but do not understand why they need to play on an arbitrary standard set by “us” (that word again… who gave “us” the right to dictate moral righteousness to everyone…).
Sure there are those who would understand the accomplishment that can be gained from playing a game with perma-death among other rewards, but at the same time not giving people who do not understand a means to step in to that environment seems almost unacceptable when no reasonable argument for not doing so is presented. I suggested a way to retain perma-death to the fullest extent along side of a way to increase the game’s accessibility to people who have not yet, or will not, come to see our side of that argument. As of 6 replies, 4 against, only one person has made the smallest attempt at giving a reasonable argument of opposition. But let us not end this discussion here, perhaps by the time we’re done we’ll have accomplished something important.
In the end, I had expected similar replies already as part of the reason I find rogue-likes so interested, beyond game mechanics, is that the communities structured around them appear to be a self-righteous bastion of hope for gaming as a whole. Refusal to sell out, or become even remotely accessible by diminishing their iconic features is ironically noble. Those who do sell out and lower themselves in order to turn a profit come under extensive scrutiny and condemnation by the entire community. It’s almost a gloriously primitive system of honour and nobility. But this is entirely a different topic, and not important towards my original suggestion.
[quote=“Redux, post:8, topic:5464”]I’m disappointed in your replies. Four out of the six replies basically sum up to:
“No, because I don’t want to do it should not be a feature, but here is a long, and annoying way to do it anyways.”[/quote]
It’s because permadeath in CDDA is a factor of the game. Going around it is literally cheating. As in you are breaking the rules of the game. Before you use the debug menu as a “well this is in and it’s cheating too, why shouldn’t my thing be in too?” The debug menu isn’t in the game for the sake of cheating, but rather for the sake of being able to DEBUG.
And as far as “No, because I don’t want to do it” as an argument for it is concerned that can be viewed both ways. “Yes, because I want to do it.”
You could use the ‘make the game more accessible’ point to argue removal of permadeath in any game, but it’s an integral part of the roguelike genre. I’m sorry, but I don’t care if some people don’t like it. It’s part of the game. Perhaps if more of them tried it despite their misgivings they’d find it makes for a much more exciting and gratifying game experience than just reaching for the quickload button every time something bad happens to their character.
[quote=“Redux, post:8, topic:5464”]I’m disappointed in your replies. Four out of the six replies basically sum up to:
“No, because I don’t want to do it should not be a feature, but here is a long, and annoying way to do it anyways.”[/quote]
However, you seem not to consider that your suggestion actually sums up exactly to that. You dont personally enjoy permadeath and want to get rid of it, and you believe that your posture on the subject should instead be the default one even though the game has worked in that way since its conception.
You also seem to consider that the goal of this game is some sort of gotta cath’em all Pokemon thing, this is also obviously, a matter of taste and nothing more than your own personal goal for playing the game, arguing that the game should change to allow for your way of playing to become the default style is exactly a “I dont play in that way, so screw the others” argument. Even if you took the time to disguise it in elegant words.
I feel that your… well, quest, for a more accessible play mode, is misguided. This isn’t a type of game meant for just anyone to jump into and thrive. It has its difficulty options, but they are only meant to fine-tune the degree of how badly screwed the player is at the beginning. The apocalypse doesn’t take kindly to anyone. Enhancing the game’s accessiblity should come in the form of advanced tutorials and scenarios, the form of developed NPC quest systems to give players some goals, and better UI and mouse command integration. To make playing the game easier - not winning it.
If you haven’t looked at a game called Don’t Starve yet, I suggest you do so. It’s a game where the player can’t do anything but survive for as long as he can, using what he can find and create. In my mind, Cataclysm is the same, except it is actually far less punishing. Each of your characters not only lives longer as you understand the rules of the game better, but also keeps leaving an imprint on the persistent world, so that later characters can benefit from his actions after he dies. That is the actual measure of progress in Cataclysm. To have your character survive as long as he can, and accomplish as much as possible, in the face of inevitable death.
Cataclysm without permadeath would be a completely different game, one that will not do the game we are playing now any good if it were to exist alongside it. Selling out has nothing to do with it.
I actually quite agree with the OP. Personally, I enjoy the premise of the game, but I don’t enjoy permadeath. Do I have any less right to play the game the way I want, just because I want to play it differently from the majority? I think not. What are you afraid of, anyway? That adding such an option will bring in new players(and thus devs) who don’t share your tastes, and that this might eventually through slow meritocratic evolution lead to a CDDA that’s no longer a roguelike?
Even if that were likely to happen(which it isn’t), I don’t think that’d be unfair, really. In fact, something like that has already (kinda) happened, with all the crafting and wilderness survival additions to the game which enable you to play the game in a completely different style from the old Whales days.
Re: “But the game isn’t designed that way!”. Sure, but for some people even a less well designed mechanic might be preferable to permadeath. Same thing as with the slow zombie mod, really, it completely changes the game, but it’s still lots of fun to play.
Now, as for the OP. Your concept of saves seems to be misguided. We can’t have an elaborate save system like in FPS, unless you want to make a copy of the entire world for each save, and that’d not only be inefficient but quite annoying to implement. Not something I’d suggest at all at this stage.
A simple button to save the game without quitting - we had that at one point, and we SHOULD IMO still have it. I’m not even talking about permadeath, I’m talking about the game crashing on you and you losing all your progress since you last quit the game(yeah, there is autosave, but I find it to be quite annoying and never turn it on).
EDIT: Short of that, the option to save each time you sleep also is a good alternative. It avoids the whole “quicksave explore quickload” issue, so it could be a decent compromise.
EDIT2: Quicksave actually already exists, just need to bind it.
Quickload I’d hold out on, mostly because manually loading your save isn’t much of a problem. Instead I’d go for an “exit the game without saving” option.
Deleting save on death can also be a simple option.
So, with these three things implemented, we’d have very few changes to code(1 new option, 2 new commands), without disrupting anyone’s playstyle. They’d simply make “savescumming” easier for those so inclined. I really don’t see the issue.
PS: Masterwork DF actually has a very decent savescumming system. You can enable separate saves for each season. That way when your fort starts dying, you can go back in time to before things started going awry and try to fix it. I’ve made use of it, I’ve enjoyed it, I’d enjoy a similar system for CDDA.
Permadeath is an important part of the game and genre. And argument that easier savescuming would make it more “accessible” is profoundly ridiculous. What you ask for will only make the game more tedious, boring and much less enjoyable.
[quote=“fishy1234555, post:14, topic:5464”]SANDBOX GAME
EDIT: So that means yes in case that was unclear.[/quote]
Cata is an open world game not a sandbox game.
And because sandbox games have no goal to them it should never become a sandbox game.
[quote=“John Candlebury, post:11, topic:5464”][quote=“Redux, post:8, topic:5464”]I’m disappointed in your replies. Four out of the six replies basically sum up to:
“No, because I don’t want to do it should not be a feature, but here is a long, and annoying way to do it anyways.”[/quote]
However, you seem not to consider that your suggestion actually sums up exactly to that. You dont personally enjoy permadeath and want to get rid of it, and you believe that your posture on the subject should instead be the default one even though the game has worked in that way since its conception.
You also seem to consider that the goal of this game is some sort of gotta cath’em all Pokemon thing, this is also obviously, a matter of taste and nothing more than your own personal goal for playing the game, arguing that the game should change to allow for your way of playing to become the default style is exactly a “I dont play in that way, so screw the others” argument. Even if you took the time to disguise it in elegant words.[/quote]
Your response only demonstrates either a refusal to read what I wrote, or a lack of comprehension. I wrote perhaps 3 or 4 times in both of my replies that I personally enjoy perma-death, both in Cataclysm and other games and even mentioned my love of DF for it’s difficulty.
[ul][li]I never said I dislike perma-death.[/li]
[li]I never said anything about making a non-perma-death style the default.[/li]
[li]I made constructive suggestions to implement both variations of gameplay and allow for peaceful co-existence.[/li]
[li]You’ve given no constructive suggestions, or remedies in 2 posts, and are now personally attacking my motives and I take personal offence to that.[/li][/ul]
You mistake my attempt to better this game and make it more accessible to a larger audience as a selfish endeavor and I ask you go back and re-read what I wrote or do not continue to waste either of our times in senseless banter.
[quote=“CIB, post:13, topic:5464”]A simple button to save the game without quitting - we had that at one point, and we SHOULD IMO still have it. I’m not even talking about permadeath, I’m talking about the game crashing on you and you losing all your progress since you last quit the game(yeah, there is autosave, but I find it to be quite annoying and never turn it on).
EDIT: Short of that, the option to save each time you sleep also is a good alternative. It avoids the whole “quicksave explore quickload” issue, so it could be a decent compromise.
EDIT2: Quicksave actually already exists, just need to bind it.
Quickload I’d hold out on, mostly because manually loading your save isn’t much of a problem. Instead I’d go for an “exit the game without saving” option.
Deleting save on death can also be a simple option.
So, with these three things implemented, we’d have very few changes to code(1 new option, 2 new commands), without disrupting anyone’s playstyle. They’d simply make “savescumming” easier for those so inclined. I really don’t see the issue.[/quote]
You’re actually quite right, and I will admit I hadn’t thought of a simplistic, yet surprisingly effective system as you’ve devised. To make those small changes shouldn’t take much effort at all as it fully utilizes existing systems. Thanks for the constructive reply.
[quote=“Pakislav, post:15, topic:5464”]Rigorous no on my account.
Permadeath is an important part of the game and genre. And argument that easier savescuming would make it more “accessible” is profoundly ridiculous. What you ask for will only make the game more tedious, boring and much less enjoyable.[/quote]
I’m not entirely sure if you spent the time to read my suggestion fully. I did at no point say we should remove, or devalue perma-death in any way. My attempt was to show the value in a peacefully co-existing system that allowed both perma-death and a non-perma-death game mode using the existing code. Not everyone enjoys perma-death, especially in such an expansive game, and the means to allow both options is, for the most part, already there.
Look at you, complaining about the risks of dying.
[size=12pt]But you know what?[/size]
[size=14pt]I think this game isn’t killing you enough![/size]
[size=18pt]Where are the laser-wielding giant zombears?![/size]
[size=24pt]WHERE IS THE MINIGUN-WIELDING ZOMBIE HULKS??![/size]
[size=5pt]I completely disagree with your opinion, good sir![/size]
[quote=“Redux, post:17, topic:5464”]Your response only demonstrates either a refusal to read what I wrote, or a lack of comprehension. I wrote perhaps 3 or 4 times in both of my replies that I personally enjoy perma-death, both in Cataclysm and other games and even mentioned my love of DF for it’s difficulty.
[ul][li]I never said I dislike perma-death. [/li]
[li]I never said anything about making a non-perma-death style the default.[/li]
[li]I made constructive suggestions to implement both variations of gameplay and allow for peaceful co-existence.[/li][li]
[list][li]You’ve said nothing construtive in 2 posts, and are now personally attacking my motives and I take offence to that.[/li][/list][li]
[/li][/ul]
You mistake my attempt to better this game and make it more accessible to a larger audience as a selfish endeavor and I ask you go back and re-read what I wrote or do not continue to waste either of our times in senseless banter.[/quote]
Apologies in that case, I tend to suffer propositions that deal with reducing the difficulty of the game very poorly, and basing myself on the fact you are new to the forums I assumed that you are just starting the game and are in the stage at which you get frustrated by your quick deaths.
Anyways, regarding your actual changes I would say that I don’t see why developers should spend their valuable and reduced coding time implementing such feature, as the same results can be achieved with simple savescuming; if you were to implement a quick load feature yourself I would definitively have no qualms whatsoever.
I, for one, actually agree with the OP too. It should be an option. Hell, if you feel just that strongly about ‘savescumming’, then approach the problem from the other direction. Call it ‘safe mode’, or even ‘pansy mode’, rather than calling permadeath ‘hardcore mode’ if you’re just that strongly attached to the concept of permadeath as the only possible option. Make it an option on the debug menu, alongside the ability to give yourself NI starting points and other ridiculous stuff that I never see you complain about.
