Static Spawn is Terrible

Game Talk The Bunker
1

Is there some balancing planned to fix this? As is it doesn’t flow like the current game at all. I’ve tried a few times with different character builds to accomplish anything in the game, and it just doesn’t work. It’s borderline unplayable outside of a few optimally lucky scenarios. You need a car to start exploring the city, plain and simple.

Static spawns remove the “smartness” of exploring. You can smash everything you want because the horde is already here, and they will pick up your scent trail and find you quite quickly regardless. Going anywhere near a city in daylight is suicide. There’s no thought to the risk-vs.-reward of breaking the old rules of exploration to smash your way into someplace early, knowing you’re going to bring a horde on yourself later. They’re already there. They’re everywhere. Static spawns ignore the lessons the game has been teaching and throw out a lot of the nuance of that gameplay.

Static spawns also mean your area is going to ultimately be depleted of wildlife, other spawns, and whatnot. It’s a difficulty cliff, the game starts out nigh-impossible, and then (once you’ve driven enough laps around the city in the halfbed to have run almost everything over) stops providing a challenge. Outside of the random straggler, which you are now free to shoot with whatever loud rifle you desire without repercussions. There’s no difficulty curve, it’s binary.

I can’t stress enough how ridiculously necessary a car is to going near town. This isn’t Cataclysm anymore, this is Zombie Driver. I’ve heard a rumor that the plan is to make static spawns necessary in the future? I have to wonder what’s bringing that up as even a possibility.

What is the strategy you are trying to push players towards that can navigate these cities without dying? What are you encouraging them to do once they’ve killed everything, and it’s devoid of (un)life?

2

I think it makes more sense. besides, outlying structures are often deserted so you can loot them. possibly even getting rifles.

3

And static spawn seems to be stuck on, I’ve changed the option to flase deleted the save folder ( which somehow made 75% of my desktops icons dissapear) then created a new character and still If I go anywhere near a town it’s a greeting party of zombies even in parts out side of a town I am getting instant zombies, one time all I had to do was walk out the evac shelter’s door and fast zombies and a brute were eager to greet me. Even takeing light step and inconspicuous don’t help.

4

Going forward, the gameplay development is going to be focused on the mixed static/dynamic spawn represented by “static spawn” right now. but it’s not always going to be in its current form. There will be improvements to dynamic spawning, and things like roaming mobs of zombies are planned.

Vehicles are not needed, although a different strategy and approach is at the moment. It’s not as diverse as we’d like, but not any less diverse than it was before (where it was basically 'do everything you can right away and never ever stay in town for any length of time). The current basic approach is a bit more cautious than it was previously, but not (in the experience of most players) significantly more difficult overall (at least since the spawn balance was changed - it was pretty brutal in 0.2).

There are some finding it far more difficult, and others finding it far easier - overall, it’s a shift in playstyle, and basically a requirement for moving forward and giving developers more control over the system.

The concerns about the difficulty cliff are real, and are something we are actively working on. The inclusion of roaming mobs with large amount of zombies, the resurrection of ‘killed’ zombies that aren’t properly disposed of, and the gradual introduction of specials instead of having them all placed at the beginning are things that are planned. We will be working on introducing additional changes such as a stealth system to make scavenging and infiltrating the city more effective, and there’s even been discussions about a proper z-level system which might well help with that as well. (Rooftop travel, anyone?)

But many players like the idea of being able to create a fort or safehold in the city - that is now possible, when it wasn’t before. Many players like a gradual secure-and-hold approach, which is now possible.

We realize in a lot of ways the game has become more Rebuild and less Left4Dead in the last update, and yes, there are a lot of issues yet to be resolved. But I suspect that it has a lot more to do with old habits not working in this new environment than a “need” to find a car.

Moving forward, static spawn will be the basis for our continued refinement of the game. I suspect no one thinks it’s perfect as-is, but many people think it’s better than dynamic spawn, and I feel that given some more time, we can win over the vast majority who currently prefer the dynamic spawn system.

5

Did you create a new world? If you create a new world with static spawn ON and then turn it OFF and create a new character in the same world, you’ll end up in a world that has both.

6

Did you create a new world? If you create a new world with static spawn ON and then turn it OFF and create a new character in the same world, you’ll end up in a world that has both.[/quote]
Not sure how to create a new world (there is no obvious option and last I heard such an option was broken), but I am deleting the entire save folder so surely that would force it to gen a new world?
It even says to delete the save directory in the options…

7

I wanted to keep my initial complaint and follow-up suggestions as two separate posts for sake of responses.

I think the concept of Static Spawns is interesting, it provides more of a “zombie movie” feel to the cities being these completely overrun zombie fortresses.

The problem is that the game, as designed so far, makes cities an almost unavoidable first-stop for most player concepts. You run there, you grab some things, and then you run out. You come back sometimes cautiously to grab a few more things, being careful not to stir up trouble while you’re there

Static Spawns puts a huge wall between a brand new character and anything in the city. And that’s not a bad concept, if the rest of the game is adjusted to provide more alternatives for early food and supplies. That’s the first set of possible changes I’d recommend:

  1. More outlying areas. Farm houses, cabins, tree stands, camp grounds, etc. Other places for a new character to go to first for some of those first-run supplies that they need that AREN’T filled with brutes, necromancers, and waves on waves of fresh grabber child skeletons riding battle cougars.

  2. Make Evac shelters actually have a set of supplies in them. Who setup an evac shelter that has a can of tuna fish, some note paper, and a pair of sneakers in the basement anyway? Populating the lockers with some actually useful supplies would give an immense boost to early survivability. Almost too much, though. Would have to be careful with this one.

  3. Greater initial map visibility. Starting out only being able to see the city’s contents is a huge push towards the player to go there first.

I think those changes work for both gameplay modes, but are really more for making Static Spawn more playable. They keep the cities ultra threatening, but give the player chances to arm up beforehand, and alternative content to explore should they just say “screw this” and want to avoid the cities altogether.

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:4, topic:546”]Going forward, the gameplay development is going to be focused on the mixed static/dynamic spawn represented by “static spawn” right now. but it’s not always going to be in its current form. There will be improvements to dynamic spawning, and things like roaming mobs of zombies are planned.

Vehicles are not needed, although a different strategy and approach is at the moment. It’s not as diverse as we’d like, but not any less diverse than it was before (where it was basically 'do everything you can right away and never ever stay in town for any length of time). The current basic approach is a bit more cautious than it was previously, but not (in the experience of most players) significantly more difficult overall (at least since the spawn balance was changed - it was pretty brutal in 0.2).

There are some finding it far more difficult, and others finding it far easier - overall, it’s a shift in playstyle, and basically a requirement for moving forward and giving developers more control over the system.

The concerns about the difficulty cliff are real, and are something we are actively working on. The inclusion of roaming mobs with large amount of zombies, the resurrection of ‘killed’ zombies that aren’t properly disposed of, and the gradual introduction of specials instead of having them all placed at the beginning are things that are planned. We will be working on introducing additional changes such as a stealth system to make scavenging and infiltrating the city more effective, and there’s even been discussions about a proper z-level system which might well help with that as well. (Rooftop travel, anyone?)

But many players like the idea of being able to create a fort or safehold in the city - that is now possible, when it wasn’t before. Many players like a gradual secure-and-hold approach, which is now possible.

We realize in a lot of ways the game has become more Rebuild and less Left4Dead in the last update, and yes, there are a lot of issues yet to be resolved. But I suspect that it has a lot more to do with old habits not working in this new environment than a “need” to find a car.

Moving forward, static spawn will be the basis for our continued refinement of the game. I suspect no one thinks it’s perfect as-is, but many people think it’s better than dynamic spawn, and I feel that given some more time, we can win over the vast majority who currently prefer the dynamic spawn system.[/quote]

If your approach to tackling the city isn’t to find a car and run everything over, what is it? Should a new player wander around the world hoping to stumble across some dead military people randomly plopped on the road? You’ve removed the city as a viable day one destination with the current intensity of Static Spawn.

You say “Vehicles are not needed, although a different strategy and approach is at the moment.” What is the strategy? You changed the game, how do you want people to play it now?

8

I didn’t get a car until I nearly cleared a smallish city. Throw and wood spears.

9

From what’s been described, an effective initial strategy is to use your initial starting equipment to craft a wooden spear from a fallen tree, circle the town and take advantage of the fact that you can see significantly longer distances than the zombies to find a border area that is fairly low density, break in through the back windows of a few houses/shops and loot them to get some basic equipment.

Clear out a section of town this way towards the edge, build up some basic defenses, and spend some time working on equipment and building skills and your experience pool to fuel deeper penetration into town and potentially better loot.

Is this an optimal strategy? Probably not. But it’s fairly effective, in my experience.

10

Static spawn is one of those things that pushing Cataclysm to “Hardly playable” into “Unplayable”

Yes, you can survive with them on but really, its overtly clear no one involved actually thought any of the ramifications through. I have tried to explain that going straight to static spawn only without actually finishing anything to mitigate the rather severe game-play changes is a disastrous move on IRC, but any sort of negative feedback without very extreme placating of the fragile egos involved was met with extreme hostility.

Out of anyone who is not actually on the project I have talked to about this, only ONE has had anything positive to say about this. And it was luke warm at best. Having worked with coding and design teams extensively this reeks of one of those ideas that is so cool on paper no one is actually willing to admit that it makes the game it is put into fucking unbearable to play.

No, making a game where you need to derp around for fucking ages getting a good throwing skill so you can take out waves of zombies, including brutes, with spears is not a fun game. I mean dwarf fortress can be mind numbing busy work at times but this is like starting the game without a pickaxe and having to trade for a solid gold one with only woodcrafts.

While static spawn is a good idea and could be good for the game no one involved in it is really willing to admit that the negative aspects are even negative. When people equate looking for a decent weapon, building tools, and simple survival equipment like pots and pans to “Cherry picking cities for the best items” and the idea of making starting spawns where it is literally impossible to survive on purpose is fine, I think it is clear the tedium in running around like a caveman is a feature, not a bug.

It is a shame it kinda makes Catacylsm a totally different game and one I am no longer really interested in devoting any thought towards.

11

I wouldn’t say my sentiment is THAT pointed, but I agree that I don’t think the effects the change has on the core gameplay has been looked through.

I am having success doing what Glyph outlined above. You have to slowly and carefully kill everything you come across. There is no more avoiding, or stealth. You penetrate the cities on a one-man crusade, stabbing everything to death with your wooden spear from behind the relative safety of a smashed window or line of shrubs.

The game of stealthy zombie avoidance and exploration is now a more traditional roguelike mob slaying game. It works, but I hope in the future the option to play the Cataclysm that was is preserved alongside the changes towards the new Cataclysm. I’m still disappointed that the fine balance between stealth and combat has been dumped for more combat, but at least it’s playable.

12

Stealth as an active element in the game is planned, and night-time still exists. Although I currently find night much harder to muck around than daylight; not seeing the zombie horde you’re about to run into is inconvenient, you can still sneak around as long as you have a planned route.

I don’t use throwing or vehicles, though I rely on finding a crossbow early as a boost, the usual lure 1-2 Zs and kill them works. You just have to take it easy and stick to the edges of the city. Currently the city center is deemed end-game content and thus contains a denser zombie population.

I too am looking forward to a bit more stealth elements instead of “kill everything”, but that too is something that needs to be balanced; running around in a town without attracting any zombies makes the game very un-challenging.

13

I’ve found static spawn has made it easier to clear out towns without a vehicle. I can slowly kite out groups, but have to avoid the city centers until I’m well prepared, with lots of ammo and or molotovs.

Getting lots of ammo is easy by looting military outposts/labs for the stupid amounts of 9mm that the turrets drop. Then I just shoot shoot shoot. For molotovs, it’s easy to get gas from outlying gas stations or mines, and glass bottles from mansions. Or a liquor store if i’m fast. Melee weapons like a simple wooden javelin mean you can slowly yet surely kill zombies you’ve kited out to a decent window, or set of pit traps. 10+ bear traps can be a great defensive line.

I literally find it easier to deal with, now that I’ve adjusted. Not early on, but the grace period made it too easy to get everything I needed to avoid cities. Now big cities are a mid game challenge to overcome. Still wayyy to easier with a vehicle, even a basic car. Clearing entire cities of Zs is much easier, especially since they don’t randomly spawn behind you.

And shotguns are now fantastic - break into a gunstore, grab a saiga and some ammo, and just proceed to kill everything that comes after you until they stop killing.

It is not literally impossible to survive. It is not unplayable. If you’re finding that the case, you’re doing it wrong.

14

If you’re approaching it from a classic Cataclysm point of view, it’s unplayable using that approach. Sustained combat against zombies was almost always a losing proposition so you avoided it like the plague, and used smart scavenging techniques to avoid horde spawns.

If you try to play static spawns with that mentality, it’s unplayable. You need to start over from scratch with how you deal with hordes. It’s a combat game now. You slowly whittle away at them by using shrubs and broken windows to lure them in. It’s a whole new game. I’m learning it, but I can’t say I think it’s a good direction for the game to go in.

It seems the largest amount of support for this change are people who want to build stuff in cities. It strikes me as somewhat odd, given that:

  1. You could readily build structures without Static Spawns. Dynamic Spawns also provided your fort with more readily available wildlife to turn into jerky.

  2. Mobile vehicle forts are so much more advantageous, it seems like an odd thing to want to change the entire gameplay to accomodate.

  3. The number of people quietly enjoying dynamic spawns vs. the number of people who are being vocal about wanting static spawns will only become apparent when you’ve removed the former’s ability to choose.

15

That basically sums it up. As the game changes, tactics will have to change. While the changes are being fleshed out, some tactics will become more or less viable. Some will be broken, making things easier or harder. Playtesting is needed to find strategies, etc. New monsters will be very difficult when no one has developed a good strategy for them, for instance.

Feedback is helpful to balance these issues, but over the top statements such as “the game is unplayable” aren’t really helpful - especially when they’re completely untrue. Some versions of the game are going to be harder or easier than others, but these kind of overreactions and the anger expressed here just come across as very entitled. I haven’t found any versions, except for ones with show stopping bugs, that are completely unplayable.

If you don’t like the way the current version has gone difficulty wise, either play an old one, or give yourself more skill points, or spawn yourself a vehicle, leather jacket, and shotgun, or whatever it is you need to make the game fun for you, and wait for it to be balanced out.

16

Problem with playing an old version is that my reference point is increasingly outdated, so because I don’t like most of the undocumented changes since 02 Feb Bugfix, I’m less likely to be able to affect them. So it goes.

+1 vote for Dynamic Spawns, incidentally: I’d rather not be required to take XP/time for Throwing/Piercing.

17

I also want to clarify - I’m not in the slightest bit unsympathetic to those who don’t like the current set of dominant playstyle and strategies.

I don’t like the current set of dominant playstyle and strategies. I’m a dedicated scavenger and stealth dude at heart, and would prefer to play with the mentality that if I’m getting into a fight, I’ve done something wrong. Obviously, for me, the game is not terribly fun right now - It is not unplayable, for sure, that’s nothing but hyperbole, but I can see why people would not like what playable means.

I’m lucky though - I’m a bit closer to the development process, and can see what these kind of changes mean in the long term. I think the switch to static spawn is a step back for my preferred playstyle, or even several steps back, but I think they are necessary ones. They’ve allowed us to take a different and, in my opinion, more promising new path… even if it’s going to take some time before it feels like that.

But I want other people to be able to understand a bit of what this system means for that sort of play, and the possibilities that might arise out of it. Try a game where you make extensive use of Peeking and distraction sounds and tell me if you have any luck at penetration. It’s simple, sure. It’s not super effective. But suddenly, it feels like you have a little bit of control, where approach and tactics matter.

In the old system… they didn’t. There were a few simple rules to “stealth”, and if you followed them you were… ok, and if you didn’t, you were screwed. But there wasn’t any real depth. A lot of the changes planned right now acknowledge that that is a way people want to play, and we want to get back to that, but we want to get to that place with some real depth behind it this time, so we can keep going. I’m not promising that’s going to happen soon - it’s not. But we’re working towards it.

So, yes, it may be frustrating at the moment (meanwhile, builders and commandos and primitivists are loving it, but I’m not those things), but I guess I just want you to know that we aren’t deaf to your concerns, and we haven’t forgotten about you. Well, okay, I don’t really care about any of you bastards, but I’m going to make damn sure nobody forgets about [i]me[/i[, and I feel like our concerns will be addressed by a lot of the same changes.

(That’s a joke, by the way, I obviously care about all of the game’s fans. But god damn it, I want a an infiltration and avoidance based survival horror, not a crafting/combat roguelike!)

So yeah… Adapting can be tough, and the game may not be what you want at the moment. But I trust that the people I’m developing with can make it better than it was before, and that this is how that’s going to happen.

18

Here is the thing…

The game is borderline unplayable with the current static spawn. By that I don’t mean unplayable by mechanics, but it is unplayable to many people I know because it is just too unpleasant to play.

The interesting thing about Catacylsm is that is sort of a fusion between dwarf fortress fortress mode and adventure mode. You are a lone dude struggling to survive but you have access to things above and beyond simply making weapons to hit dudes with.

Right now static spawn is set up to kill some of the best parts of catacylsm, and worse, some of the devs I have talked to about this seem to think it is a good thing.

There is nothing wrong with adaptation to a new game, it is great when a game evolves… but evolution shouldn’t mean turning a game around so much it becomes something ugly or so radically different from what it was. Statics, as an0n3 has said, borderline changes the genre of this game from a modern survival sim to a really lame version of a dungeon crawl roguelike. At least in stone soup the devs give you variation on your start. I could throw spears there or press z to cast if I wanted. Here it really is a lot of boring required combat and it is upsetting for people to think of that as acceptable as the only strategy instead of one strategy. To put it another way, it took cataclysm and turned it from an amazing sandbox into a really terrible closed experience for a lot of people and showcases the least interesting part of the game.

Likewise, any opinion should be respected. Regardless of stance or extremity. I fully respect the people who like static, but I really don’t like or respect the way static is being handled. Before it has even been really hashed out and proven to be workable, it is already slated as the ONLY option and current gameplay problems have been ignored because they are going to go away if static spawn is added.

I have reported bugs and obvious issues with static spawns. Serious things like “I can’t even go within 5 map squares of a small town without being murderized despite being a combat character” and there was extreme hostility to even THAT sort of negativity. The guy in charge of static spawns is actually really cool and has ideas on how to make static spawns less of a “Fucking game over if you even think about going to a town without being a greek hoplite” but at the same time he is surrounded by some rather bitter people who really really hate the idea of people scavenging intelligently, looking for items they need to use to survive, claiming it is “people cherry picking the best loot.”

I want static spawns to work because they would improve the game, but everything involved with them is telling me they wont. People talking about “Avoiding city centers” when there is no such thing as the center of a city and you encounter brute zombies no matter where you are in the town, the fact zombies are not contained in any way, and the fact the game is currently designed to be played with the player having limited access to every gear possible to find in a town yet people act like people scavenging as much as they can day 1 are somehow “Cheating” make me extremely pessimistic about this change.

A game should stand on it’s own too feet. I shouldn’t have to mod skills and debug spawn myself some items to want to play it. Part of making a game is understanding your ideas may be challenged and, so far with a few really neat exceptions, it doesn’t seem like people WANT statics to be challenged at all, and they don’t want to see any problem with them no matter how overt they are. As long as it can be explained away with even the lamest excuse on par with “maybe you shouldn’t approach a city you can’t even actually see and thus avoid” or “Do some busy work so you can actually start enjoying the game” any sort of negative feedback or ideas on how to improve statics have been a nightmare to provide.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving feedback. Any designer with any sort of ego should be able to handle that something that isn’t even close to done has flaws, and that changing one of the most core functions of the game has dramatic ramifications for other things that can be extremely negative, but it seems rare. I don’t think that there is any real malice towards opposing ideas from most of the devs (But I can’t lie and say there is none, people will be people), so much as there being way too much attachment to the idea of statics that is making people way to touchy to any sort of negativity and way to blind to really basic and glaring game-play flaws it creates.

And for the record: I, and most people with any know how of design, will agree required options are not options and you should always work to maximize player agency. It is really disturbing to hear people talk about dead spawns and not only thinking they are not a priority to fix, but absolutely fine to deliberately encourage. If something is so required that you MUST do it or a situation you start in so fucked you can’t possibly get out of it, automate it and make it so the player never sees it.

19

Ok. The complaints about static spawn seem to fall into the following categories, so I’m gonna try and set up a defence against each point.

Please feel free to take issue with any of my suggestions, or point out ideas I haven’t addressed. I’d like to see this discussion become productive, rather than go down the road of pointless bickering, as it seems to be at the moment (props to GlyphGryph, and a couple of others, for rising above it and being nice!)

Also bear in mind that most of these approaches are based on playing version 0.2, which was actually harder and less forgiving than 0.3 seems to be.

1) Static Spawn is too hard

As has been mentioned, static spawn merely requires some adjustment. The traditional strategy of grabbing basic gear in the grace period no longer works, and I’ll be the first to admit that the stealth element is currently lacking, but the game is by no means impossible.

I’ve honestly found static spawn far easier, and certainly less frustrating than the old system ever was. It rewards a far greater variety of playstyles, and adds a depth to the game that I’d always felt was lacking.

2) There are no viable strategies other than combat/vehicles

I’ll admit that this was my initial reaction too. Combat is a highly rewarding approach to taking on a city, at the moment, and if properly executed, it has a much higher reward than it ever did in the old spawning system. This is a good thing, though. Before static spawns, combat was essentially a pointless endeavour. It served to avoid taking damage, and to farm for drops and skills, but nothing more. There was no progress in killing a Z.

That said, I’ve realised that there are far more subtle ways to handle static spawn than to employ brute force.

The first is cautious combat - characters can employ various strategies to depopulate a city which don’t require them to be combat orientated. I managed to clear most of a mid-sized town by day 4 with a character in 0.2, simply by using careful luring tactics, and judicious applications of fire and bottlenecking. It was slow, and tactical, but it was absolutely not “Walk in and kill shit”. It was only combat in that it occasionally involved killing stuff, but there were no pitched battles.

The second is using your environment. Spawns only appear some way into the town - sometimes up to two map squares in. This makes it possible to sneak around the edges, with a mind to speedy escapes if necessary. It is also possible to use misdirection - say getting a group of Zs trapped behind a wire-fence, while you quickly loot a shop.

The third is realising that there are no longer infinite Zs in an area. Anything which removes them from a certain location, frees it up for you to revisit - there are more ways to achieve this than just killing them dead. It is actually quite trivial to lead groups of weaker Zs away from the outskirts of town, and lose them in a forest. Likewise, with only a few stimulants, the same can be achieved for brutes, fast zombies, skeletons, and even Hulks (with cocaine/meth/crack and some planning). Combat is not, and should not be, your only approach.

3) Static Spawn forces you to adopt a survivalist playstyle

It may make living in/near towns more difficult at first, but it is by no means impossible to base your entire early game around clearing a town out. Survivalists may have an easier time of it, but I’ve played characters who have been successful in clearing out sections of residential areas by day 1. The risks are higher, sure, but so are the rewards. Cata has always followed that basic risk/reward structure.

4) The design is simply shit

I’ve seen a few people assert this, but nobody seems to be backing it up with any reasons why.

Why is the game shallower now that there are static spawns? Is it just because it’s harder? It seems to me that there are far more varied strategies open to players under the new system than the old one (which basically forced you to be stealthy unless you were a combat god - and nothing else.)

In fact, the only thing that appears to have been lost through the static spawn system (as it currently exists) is the stealth aspect. And the devs have been very clear that they want to reintroduce this asap.

20

  1. Static spawn does make the game astronomically harder. Unlike in standard, you are virtually naked against a horde of regulars and specials to get at even the most basic household items. No one said it was impossible, they said it was TOO HARD. there is a HUGE difference. It is too hard to be fun, too hard to be worth the time, too hard to get access to some of the most important features of cataclysm that make it different from any other roguelike out there. At the end of the day, you can say “You can try to work around it” but right now you have to fight big mobs (Making starting with REALLY good combat skills mandatory or require ages of training, and making low str and dex characters unplayable to the point you may as well remove the option to start below 10) to get at basic things like pots, pans, scissors, sewing kits, bandages, or water containers.

  2. There are no valid strategies other than combat and vehicles. All 3 of your strategies involve combat, and worse, two of them don’t work because odds are good you are going to see some zombie brutes in that horde you try to set up a trap against or syphon off. And even then most of these strategies, as my good friend put it, are not fun. At all. Most people I know admit it is possible to play but also note it is no longer fun to play. It is no longer a game. It is work.

  3. It makes living in or near towns early is no longer viable at all. There are no ifs and or buts. Just because you can do something with extreme luck doesn’t mean that it is repeatable or actually a realistic option. Playing a townie is now like playing a mutant. You can’t really do it without hard work. But where as being a mutant is a luxury right now being a townie is the ONLY way to get access to most of the game. So yeah, you can still be a townie, but only after playing this lame ass greek hoplite sim and even then only if you get really lucky on the spawns.

  4. The design is as shitty as a design can realistically be. It is as oppressively unfun and unintuitive to the cataclysm game as is humanly possible.

The game is based around stuff. Static spawns limit you to a pool for like 6 different kinds of stuff until you get a great throwing skill and 50 spears. It is a design that took an awesome sandbox game and added a boring and truly awful linear segment to the front. A design can be called bad when most of the people in my experience who are shown it find the game almost physically painful to play.

That is basically the major sin of static spawns.

Yes, the game is still playable.

Yes, you can work around it.

Yes, if you get really lucky you can get access to a town ages before you should (if not quickly).

But at the end of the day I, and no one I know who played cataclysm played it because they want to mindlessly attack zombies for a few hours.

Huge chunks of the game are designed to make this the least interesting and viable option you have! Every single thing up to this point has been “Do not fight if you can’t help it or without major advantage” and this mandatory change that is coming up is going to, unless the, frankly, way smarter heads on the team manage to win out over some truly stupid people and get major re-works to static spawns (as some very loud team members see the fact it obliterates your ability to get “The best stuff” which they see as anything that spawns in a fucking house as a very good part of static spawns), they are going to flip that and make fighting zombies with sticks and stones, with no advantages not only mandatory, but take up huge chunks of your time.

No one I know thinks statics are a bad idea. But most of the team I have talked to thinks statics, as they are right now is not only the acceptable state, but the preferable one. And everybody but ONE person I have talked to about this, who actually enjoys playing the game even if they are not designers, finds playing with statics as they are right now to be the most miserable thing possible.

This thread came about not because statics are utterly unwanted, but the devs, aside from a few, are kinda keeping it an open secret they are going to end up as they are right now and maintain an extremely negative attitude to anyone who actually enjoys how cataclysm actually flows right now. Hence the need for a push-back thread asking “Do it, but please realize that if you do it like THIS the game is essentially ruined for a lot of people, and that your idea of power gaming is seriously fucked up.”

This attitude is so prevalent, any sort of negative thought towards really deep seeted intents is seen of as “bickering” or “fighting.”

I haven’t seen anyone in this thread actually bicker, people have mostly been good about bringing up points, but because some people really do not like the idea of anyone being negative about anything, they view every single negative comment at a design, rather than a person, as an attack against the people making it. Egos are too involved, and that is part of what is scary, because if you actually talk it out in IRC you get a really strong push back to even stuff like reporting bugs. People are so attached to this bug reports get a lot of grumbling and “Why are you starting crap? It is perfectly fine if you jump through 20 hoops.” Once ego gets so attached to personal desires for a project not only is it more likely to happen, which could be good or bad, it gets harder for the people involved to see serious and sometimes glaring flaws. If anyone here has worked with dysfunctional design groups, and I know a few people who have, you start to see such attitudes as immediately poisonous and the only real way to combat it is to make negativity towards the flaws as unavoidable and painful as possible until they can no longer be ignored. “Can’t please everyone” should not be used to dismiss negative feedback and avoid any sort of requirement to defend a choice in the face of points against it. Nor is “They are just angry or starting fights.” Even if they are, you should be able to actually defend the choice, like you are attempting to do. Bravo to you and Gryph for actually organizing logical counterpoints, even if some are really weak, as most people I have talked to about it don’t bother and tend to dismiss people who don’t like this. That said I find some of your counterpoints are trying to dismiss what people are actually trying to say (“It isn’t fun or worthwhile”) with something else (“Well technically everything is still doable”).

No one in this thread wants anything bad for the game. So don’t take “I strongly disagree with these changes and the thought processes behind them” as “bickering.”