Side effects of min-maxing stats

[Tamior]

Assuming we go from normal multi-pool start (all stats at 8 + 6 points to spend).

I want to discuss what are the drawbacks of min/maxing stats in the current meta.

Normally I play this:
Str 13 (pretty much the best stat for actually getting things DONE in the game)
Dex 8
Int 8
Per 9 (9 for extra tile of vision in the dark)

But the more I think about, the more I feel like I should just min/max even more.

So what exactly what be the most obvious side effect of dropping dex and per?
I never seem to have any trouble hitting things at range with bow/xbow with the current stats.

The reason I don’t want to lower int is that I kind of need it for bionics installation (including the +stat modules), but maybe I’m missing something here.

Dropping perception will decrease the sight in darkness, but what else?

How about dex?

P. S. Also would like to hear your min/maxed builds and the rational behind them.

[Unawares]

Good topic.

I’m still trying different things on this. For example, in the past I’ve tended to keep Int reasonably high. For example to help with bionics, like you said.

In my current run I started with a much lower Int to challenge that. I think I went with 6, reasoning that I could buff it to 8 eventually with a passive bionic, and under 8 I believe it starts to randomly mess up hacking attempts.

So far so good. Reading books does take much longer. But you can still do it. There are ways to buff Int for a bionic install, and that does help. Train your related skills really high before working on bionics, and then the effect of the Int difference isn’t terrible. Also just expect that bionic installs may fail (true at higher Int anyway), and keep going.

Perception is limited by trap detection for me. If you go lower on perception you need a plan to train trap skill up to compensate.

[Tamior]

Isn’t trapping super-easy to train via crafting to lvl 2 at least?
All recipes are auto-learn and components are very common.

[Mantar]

Perception also affects night vision.

[Tamior]

I mentioned it.
Also, you can start with a profession that has night vision CBM if that’s an issue.

[Unawares]

Isn’t trapping super-easy to train via crafting to lvl 2 at least?

Nailboard trap looks easy at difficulty 0, and bear trap at 2 is good once you have a bit of mechanics learned. Difficulty 1 is the tripwire trap, that’s a harder one. Those parts aren’t always easy to get depending on your start (you need superglue and a long string or similar). And you can’t just disassemble the tripwire trap again after.

For a lab start I might try disarming slime traps to get through to level 2.

[Krisu]

If you’re a maso and are ok with playing single pool go with good old RBD with wander spawn. If a zombie catches up to you you’re probably toast assuming you didnt get any combat skills. Its hard unless you get lucky with a good weapon.
Assuming you don’t pick any skills and start with shower victim you get a total of 17 points to spend on stats. I went with 13 13 13 10 for my current character.

Of course it might be too min max so if I played multipool I would go split between int and str.

[Tamior]

Nah, talking multi-pool here.
Just did a bionic soldier start with:
Str 18
Dex 4
Int 8
Per 4

Looks very interesting, actually. Low per is just “whatever” as you have night vision CBM, so is dex.
You can still aim the rifle and hit things pretty well.
Now, with 18 str you can make and use that ridiculous great-bow.

[Unawares]

Ok, so if:

A) trap detection requires perception + 2 * trapping > trap_visibility + trap_distance + eye_encumbrance_penalty

B) trap_visibility for the worst traps considered (buried landmines, sinkholes) is 10

C) eye_encumbrance_penalty of 2 is fairly common both early and mid game (maybe more late game)

Are we then aiming for Perception + 2 * Trapping = 13 for trap safety?

For very early safety, with Trapping trained to just 1, you then need a Perception of 11, or 9 if you just keep your eyes unencumbered for the time being.

But once you manage to finish training with bear traps you should be at Trapping 3, at which point you only need a Perception of 7 for trap safety.

Of course, your Perception can be penalized by various conditions, which could leave you more vulnerable.

Thoughts? Corrections?

[Tamior]

Mines are dangerous, but I’ve never encountered a mine that was just “randomly” there. So you can avoid mines by simply not going into places where mines are (until you’ve trained trapping enough).
Sinkholes CAN be random in swamps, but they are hardly dangerous (unless you are heavily damaged to begin with).

Even with perception of 4 you should be able to train trapping to lvl 3 before you actually have to go to trapped places.
So all-in-all traps are definitely not a good enough reason to keep perception beyond 4 in my view.

[Unawares]

Mines are dangerous, but I’ve never encountered a mine that was just “randomly” there. So you can avoid mines by simply not going into places where mines are (until you’ve trained trapping enough).

Yes that’s a good point, I mostly agree and have done similar with low perception. It’s nice to know where the “trap safety” point is though.

The one that gets me is trekking some long distance, maybe at night, maybe in forest, maybe just not paying attention, and I don’t see the minefield area signs.

So if you don’t, or can’t see the corner signs on a minefield that’s a pretty random surprise. They don’t always have mounds of dirt to subtly warn you either.

[Wayticus]

Dex and Per do a bit more then is obvious

http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/doxygen/Effects_Stat_Dexterity.html

http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/doxygen/Effects_Stat_Perception.html

[Unawares]

Yes, I have found those lists very helpful. Thanks for posting them here, good reference.

For Per nothing in the list is really worthwhile to me, at least for a melee focused character. I can’t comment on ranged combat yet, I just don’t know. I was really interested in the critical chance benefit recently, but digging into it I learned that effect is (sadly) extremely small. The sight bonus at night can be nice, and that’s been mentioned here. You might want to adjust your Per slightly aiming for a multiple of 3 to get the extra square of night vision, I do consider that.

Dexterity is a bit more interesting to me. I think you can do fine with very low Dex, it makes combat more difficult early on, but you’re fine later when your skills become high. (Again, I don’t know for sure about ranged combat, haven’t tried that.) There might be some good uses for high Dexterity though. I’m trying a very high Dex run right now testing.

[Wayticus]

Guess I should of shared the Str, and Int ones too

http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/doxygen/Effects_Stat_Strength.html

http://dev.narc.ro/cataclysm/doxygen/Effects_Stat_Intelligence.html

[Tamior]

The problem with those lists, they really don’t give you an idea of how actually important those modifiers are.

I mean, with night vision CBM, you can compensate for pretty much ALL “negative” effects of per 4 with some skill training.
Similar situation with dex.

Low strength, on the other hand, can’t be compensated for with skills. More importantly, high str helps you with ACTUAL survival early on as you can tank more damage, break out of grabs, resist poison and infections, etc, etc.
Heck, having high strength means you are waaay better at just looting places or riding a bicycle or many other things where being quicker/better is a difference between getting hit/spotted or not.

[Tamior]

So, yea, about that Bionic solder with
Str 18
Dex 4
Int 8
Per 4

Works like a charm.
Craft a crossbow and some metal bolts, destroy EVERYTHING from range after sunset with pretty much zero retaliation.

[Eastwardrope91]

A stat min-Max I use all the time is:

Addictive personality
Heavy Sleeper
Insomnia
Sleepy
And pyromaniac

The addictive personality is basically harmless so it’s free points. The heavy sleeper makes it so insomnia won’t wake you up randomly as often and sleepy makes you get tired faster disabling insomnia’s effect so you sleep at about the same rate and pyromaniac is more often than not a buff to your mood and is therefore free points. I then typically pick night vision for slightly higher night vision(also sets you on some of the nicer mutation paths) I then have intelligence 10 as I can’t seem to craft without it.

[Tamior]

The thing about Bionic solder start, you start with night vision CBM.
So you don’t need perception OR night vision trait.

[Sanehatter]

That’s a solid list.

Animal Discord
Trigger Happy
Weak Stomach
Poor Hearing
Junkfood/Wool Intolerance

Are great negative traits too.

[Erk]

I found junk food intolerance super annoying actually. Plenty of foods you can craft and wouldn’t expect to have it use the junk food tag.