Separate chemistry from cooking, into its own skill

[BeerBeer]

So yeah. Any inedible item that is currently a result of cooking should fall under chemistry, right?

• I mean explosives and mutagens at the very least. (Yes… mutagens are edible…). Superglue. Bio diesel. Salt (from bleach). All drugs.
• Should alcohol brewing be under chemistry or cooking?

The changes might take time but I say relocate one appropriate item at a time from cooking over to chemistry.

• It’d a be a new skill, so it might need new skill books, although there already are ‘chemistry textbooks’ and others.
• And perhaps a few new starting professions that relate to chemistry, such as a chemistry teacher with lung cancer…
• Further along maybe make changes to cooking so that the high-end meals give substantial morale boosts while being substantially difficult to cook. I mean, to me cooking is about making delicious things. Chemistry is a science.

I understand that for some items the line gets really blurry but there are some clear-cut items that really shouldn’t be under “cooking”. Right?

[Zireael]

Been suggested multiple times, the problem is a relative lack of low-level chemistry recipes. Unless we come up with something?

See this thread: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=10365.msg245989#msg245989

[pisskop]

Honestly chemistry and are more alike than I care to admit. One is focused on a specific purpose while on is a catchall though.

Id be pretty cool with making bleach gas-bombs that poison organics or syringes of poison for contact kills against small animals (that taints meat) or simply making chemistry what it is; a hard fought profession

[Sean_Mirrsen]

Chemistry and cooking are very much alike. Both have you follow instructions, prepare and mix ingredients in proper amounts, and observe proper timing. What we think of as “chemistry” is merely a higher-level form of cooking.

[BeerBeer]

[quote=“Zireael, post:2, topic:11153”]Been suggested multiple times, the problem is a relative lack of low-level chemistry recipes. Unless we come up with something?

See this thread: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=10365.msg245989#msg245989[/quote]
That’s not necessarily a problem. In fact, it just makes chemistry that much more interesting as a skill among the other skills. It means that the rewards of chemistry come later, after harder work and greater patience, and are rewarded more generously. You would have to have the patience to find all the right books, or have the patience to grind up the skills, and “learn through your experiments” so to speak.

The only problem I see is that players should be discouraged from spending just few points in chemistry during character creation, because it would be a waste. Even so, players could be warned about that in the chemistry description such as “Chemistry is a demanding skill and requires patience to learn. There are only a few low level chemistry recipes… but at higher levels you’ll reap some glorious rewards when you are able to produce explosives, advanced drugs and other compounds.”

Also, certain low level cooking items could be copied over to chemistry, so that both the chefs and chemists would be able to produce them. The differences between the two skills should start to manifest in the higher skill levels, preferrably in spectacular and noticeable ways.

Chemistry and cooking are very much alike. Both have you follow instructions, prepare and mix ingredients in proper amounts, and observe proper timing. What we think of as “chemistry” is merely a higher-level form of cooking.

But there are differences that are impossible to ignore. Any schmuck can cook (up to a point). It takes academic discipline and weeks/months of study to learn and understand chemistry before you can apply it in any meaningful manner. Yet, a skilled chemist can be a terrible chef, with or without cooking instructions. Cooking isn’t just about following recipes. It goes deeper than that. Cooking is about creativity, instinct and talent that’s gained through experience. Cooking is about pleasing the palate, but chemistry just aims to get a job done, sometimes in very creative ways. Of course in the level of physics both are the same, but humans don’t experience it that way, not generally, not wholeheartedly. If cooking and chemistry were the same, then the best chefs would be great chemists, and great chemists would be great chefs. But that is not the case. The only place where palate, cooking and chemistry become heavily intertwined is the food industry and their labs.

[kevin.granade]

The cooking skill does not really represent being ‘a cook’ and a chemistry skill would not represent being ‘a chemist’. They both represent the ability to follow their respective crafting recipes properly.
As such there is no philisophical difference between the two, and the only reason to separate them is if cooking has too many recipes. Hence the call for detailed recipes to bulk up chemistry.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

We’d need more uses for basic chemicals first.

So far all I’m finding is explosives. Like acetone peroxide. I wonder if we can figure needing an active fridge and a day’s refrigeration into a recipe…

[Miloch]

I disagree, Kevin. High end cooking involves an understanding of food specific chemistry. Being good at cooking requires that you have knowledge of various methods to prepare (and arguably preserve) food. And of course, knowledge about taste. Knowledge of chemistry has specifically to do with how to cause chemical reactions to various substances using practical methods. Chemistry and food should be separate. And the argument that Chemistry doesn’t have enough recipes to stretch all the way out isn’t quite true either (At least now it’s not). Because right now the recipes are compressed down into the tail end of cooking, for the most part. If separated you would want to redistribute the chemistry recipes to make sense over the 10 point spread of the skill. Are there more then 10 chemistry recipes? I think so.
So there is lots of overlap between the two. But I totally disagree that there is enough for them to be on the same skill. I understand why they were originally.
Now the huge issue is that it would take a bunch of work without really adding anything to the game. I think we can all agree on that one.
So for it to happen would really take someone who felt passionately enough about it to do it in the end.
Anyone working on this is not adding additional content to the game.
EDIT:
Speaking of, can I donate cash towards that specific task? (offering a reward to someone who separates the two in a sensible manner?)

[Coolthulhu]

Speaking of, can I donate cash towards that specific task? (offering a reward to someone who separates the two in a sensible manner?)

You can make an issue on github and add a bounty to it.

But issues of this type should be verifiable, not vague.
“Separate chemistry and cooking in a sensible manner” would be hard to confirm.
“Add those 10 chemistry recipes from Anarchist Cookbook and update existing recipes with those” would be doable and would help more with the split than directly requesting the split.

High end cooking involves an understanding of food specific chemistry. Being good at cooking requires that you have knowledge of various methods to prepare (and arguably preserve) food. And of course, knowledge about taste. Knowledge of chemistry has specifically to do with how to cause chemical reactions to various substances using practical methods.

But low level cooking and chemistry are very similar. They require similar abilities (controlling temperature, mixing proportions, judging progress of a chemical process by smell and sight etc.) and similar tools.
To split them properly, we’d need an alteration to the skill system. Something like recipes allowing “cooking 4 OR chemistry 2” as difficulty.

[Miloch]

I can see what you are saying that what you do can be very similar at low level, but the knowledge involved is rather different (for what you are learning and building towards. Not knowledge of how to do the low level tasks.) Like I said there is cross over between the skills. And maybe we really do need something like you said. For now we could do two different recipes until someone adds the bit you just said. Honestly any recipe that could be done with cooking should simply be a low end chemistry recipe. Just consider the lack of actual recipes for chemistry that bit of time it takes you to adapt your cooking knowledge to chemistry.
As for the bounty, I’d really need someone whose knowledgeable about the code to chime in on what would be needed. But from a player’s standpoint…

Create Chemistry Skill and add it to all UI’s.
Move all chemistry recipes to from cooking to chemistry. This is not as straight up as it seems. You will need to move things around re-balance BOTH cooking and chemistry.

Totally should add the Chemistry Major as a new starting class. Couple points in chemistry+Chemistry text book(requires skill 3)+chemistry set.
Yes, that you can’t use the book yet is on purpose.

[kevin.granade]

You’re free to disagree if you want, but cooking/chemistry in the game does only represent ability to follow recipes, so basing an argument on anything else is pointless.

[Miloch]

Honestly not trying to bash your opinion, Kevin. Just disagree with it strongly. But I still feel the biggest issue with this is that you aren’t going to add a bunch to the game and it takes a bunch of work.

[CosmicKobal]

[quote=“Zireael, post:2, topic:11153”]Been suggested multiple times, the problem is a relative lack of low-level chemistry recipes. Unless we come up with something?

See this thread: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=10365.msg245989#msg245989[/quote]

I get a warm feeling in my insides when I see other people linking to my threads. makes me feel like I’m a part of the community/development if just a bit

I like the suggestion that was made about the REAL rewards from chemistry coming at higher skill levels, and low level stuff like smoke bombs, noise makers, paint, scent removers, etc being available at low levels.

On the topic of ‘a good cook can be a good chemist’, I personally feel like I would have a score of 5 or so IRL in cooking based of the recipes available in the game, but I can tell you that I DAMN sure cant make Meth or anything else along those lines. The best I can do as far as a chemical creation is to make Draino bombs and home made Napalm molotovs from Gasoline and styrofoam.

I am NOT a chemist and would likely blow myself up if I ever attempted to actually make anything IRL requiring a skill level of 2 or higher. Thats one of the main reasons why I’ve always felt that cooking and Chemistry need to be separated. I feel like from all of the suggestions already submitted to the various ‘Chemistry threads’, and the recipes already in cooking, that we don’t really NEED more recipes in order to make chemistry happen. It could probably stand to be fleshed out a bit once it’s been implemented, but we won’t know until that actually happens.

[Malkeus]

You most likely could make meth. It’s not a difficult recipe, it just requires attention to detail, careful measurement and the right equipment. Making meth well is apparently an art as much as cooking well is. But the raw mechanics of it are at the same level as cooking a fancy meal. Little differences aside ( your fancy meal probably won’t kill you if you mix something wrong or have a flame in the wrong place), chemistry IS cooking.
That being said, high end chemistry requires far more knowledge of chemical reactions than high end cooking, if only because you have to deal with inedible things in addition to edible things. You must know about potential dangers or you will most likely kill yourself in one of dozens of ways. A cook is probably never going to encounter flourine in the kitchen, however a chemist may use it on a daily basis.
Keeping cooking a broad skill that covers cooking and chemistry is a good choice, they require the same skills and the same mindset in order to succeed. The different knowledge bases are covered by the fact that you need to read several books in order to learn anything, that nicely deals with any inconsistencies imo. See you in the next thread

[Etherdreamer]

As far I know, you need studies in chemical engineering if you want to work in a food industrie. But if you want be a chef you don´t need those studies.

In game proposes, for me, be good in chemistry is for know all aspect about edible an non edible chemical reactions, and be a chef, just use the edible reactions and it add other edible stuff for add Enjoyability.

So chemist = +nutrition + quench, Chef = +Enjoyability.