Piercing Dmg overpowered?

[KA101]

[quote=“Stevensonz, post:10, topic:1786”]it’s not a nerf it’s a balance check nerf-batting is extreme like removing martial arts from the game, what I was implying is that the larger robots should definitely be able to withstand weak punches as they have Steel plating enough to withstand normal blunt force and weak piercing.

resources aren’t that limited really. you can’t stick vehicles inside that’s true but you can build a motorbike inside. and who said Melee is the weakest? It’s superb than most weapons are because un-armed martial arts allows you to attack fast, do special moves and look cool.[/quote]

Building a vehicle inside every z-level of a Lab or Mine seems like an excellent way to run through batteries and player patience. -1.

FWIW there’s a fairly long tradition of MA being able to Break Stuff. Wood is fairly common and realistic; concrete may be a possibility, and anything more is fictional. But since the opposition can do unrealistic things, being able to punch/kick/chop/Large Talons through steel seems a reasonable counter.

[Blaze]

Don’t most bots asplode on death and hit you for significant damage already? Isn’t that enough of a nerf?

[KA101]

Don’t most bots asplode on death and hit you for significant damage already? Isn’t that enough of a nerf?

Yeah, that too.

[Stevensonz]

you guys keep talking about a nerf to punching I call it a balance check, nerffing something is extreme like lowering melee dmg and what not, while a balance check that adds some bashing and weak piercing armor to larger robots just put’s some limitations in regards to realism as heavily plated robot cannot be punch dented or pierced normally unless your very strong and skilled, also a heavily mutated martial artist cyborg is the most powerful character meaning you can just rampage your way with un-armed perhaps you don’t realize that critical hits are a sure 100% given high enough stats and skills. (Which is another problem as it doesn’t feel special anymore)

[grisamentum]

Fire doesn’t really do anything against armor and makes for a poor weapon in general. You can’t stick vehicles inside of labs and other places where most armored enemies dwell. Relying on explosions, lazers or firearms is relying on a limited resource.

metabolic interchange begs to differ

and realistically 9mm ammo is basically infinite at this point.

[Vorpal2]

Punching things, no matter how good you are, requires you to stand next to the enemy. For robots, this puts you in their death-blast radius, and at risk of getting tazered, or chewed to pieces by automatics.

I haven’t really attacked many robots with a pointy stick, but any of them that pack guns I’d be very hesitant to assault. If you find a way to do it, I say more power to you.

To get to the level of skill needed to be deadly with melee requires some investment from the player, and for them to minimize the amount they wear.

[Bladerock]

realistically 9mm ammo is basically infinite at this point.

Realistically, 9mm ammunition is even more useless against armor plating than your fists. Heck, most civilian grade bullet proof vests can stop all penetration from a 9mm at anything but point blank.

Thinking about it, you don’t want to use firearms against a robot. Armor piercing ammunition will mostly just go straight through without harming core components and leaving it functionally intact. Especially one designed with proper redundancies. Your only options are high caliber anti-vehicle weapons and explosives.

[halberdsturgeon]

You missed the point. 9mm is not in any way a limited resource and destroys robots quite capably. If you don’t like the fact that a bullet can damage a robot where a pointy stick can’t for whatever reason, then turn your attention to the fusion blaster arm, which is potentially powered by food and kills robots just as swiftly. Even if you just use an ordinary fusion rifle, the abundance of robots that drop plutonium cells makes acquiring ammunition for it only slightly less trivial than for a 9mm gun. No one with any sense melees robots in the first place, so making piercing weapons less effective against them really isn’t as big a deal as you’re suggesting.

For what it’s worth, I agree it’s very stupid that a pointy stick can pose a threat to a robot.

[Bladerock]

Just because getting a non-renewable resource in this version of the game is “trivial” it doesn’t mean it will be so in future versions. As long as you can’t make ammunition out of thin air, it will continue to be a limited resource. And armoring a robot against heat based weaponry would be even more trivial than against firearms. The fusion blaster would be just as useless.

The point is, the ability to stick a spear through an “armored target” may be game-y, but it’s one of those things you have to let slide. All i get from these thread is people who specialized their characters in ranged and are going “It’s not fair that a melee character can kill the same enemies i can!!”

[halberdsturgeon]

That’s funny, because I was just thinking the remarkable backlash from people trying to argue that it’s perfectly reasonable for a pointy stick to be effective against a robot could only be the product of players who are stubbornly determined to use melee against everything, and don’t want to have to expend any thought on whether a powerful enemy might actually warrant using “limited” resources to circumvent.

[Bladerock]

Nah, I already explained that guns aren’t going to work either if we go by the logic of applying armor realistically. And, anyways, I’m pretty sure nobody uses a pointy stick after the first ten minutes of playing. It deals too little damage for too high a cost per swing.

And, like it was said before, engaging the opponent the whole fuzz is about (robots) in melee is less than optimal already.

[system]

Stfu for a memento.

Right, so you punch a robot. A robot contains very delicate electronics inside, when you punch it you are rattling/damaging these electronics.

Same for most anything else with armor, steel plating may stop a mace from penetrating but won’t stop your arm from breaking.

People must not think these things through. Guns are a very limited resource due to map limitations and random item generation. Melee is very difficult to do now anyways and adding more difficulty for less realism is like driving in reverse from your destination.

[Stevensonz]

[quote=“gtaguy, post:32, topic:1786”]Stfu for a memento.

Right, so you punch a robot. A robot contains very delicate electronics inside, when you punch it you are rattling/damaging these electronics.

Same for most anything else with armor, steel plating may stop a mace from penetrating but won’t stop your arm from breaking.

People must not think these things through. Guns are a very limited resource due to map limitations and random item generation. Melee is very difficult to do now anyways and adding more difficulty for less realism is like driving in reverse from your destination.[/quote]

your referencing a small robots that are prone to malfunction by being bashed, larger ones would have a very thick plating where your normal punches won’t do anything unless you can insert a force of sledge hammer by being very-strong, (Steel Plated Medieval armor is thin and was only meant to stop cutting dmg and low quality weapons) which if you have more than 10 Str +hydraulic muscles for a combined 30 whopping str not counting drugs I don’t see why not (but unless you have protection expect getting shocked)
Guns limited? you must be joking it’s easily available on any town with a gunstore/police station/gun collector basement, drops from military corpses,drug dealers and zombie drops.

Let’s take a look at modern day tanks they have complex electronics inside them, but do they get dmg’d everytime they get rattled or hit something hard? NO

[esran]

i think that right now everything the player can do is overpowered. sure you can pierce robots to death, but you can also punch them to death, shoot them to death, run them over, emp them, and anything else you want, with very little difficulty so long as you train a bit. frankly for an experience player everything is easy unless you try to take out a fungal bloom or something. even fungal blooms might be easy for players who are better than me, and i assume most are.

[kevin.granade]

Pointy stick has 4/10 bash/cut damage, most robots have 10+ armor.
I’m assuming the problem you’re seeing is with a highly skilled character consistently getting crits against a robot, and therefore penetrating their armor?

If that’s the case, yea armor should generally be applied before the crit multiplier, perhaps with a caveat that really really highly skilled individuals should be able to attack armor weak points and therefore bypass it to some extent. (with perhaps a rating for armor coverage like we have now for players) Robots would have like a 99% coverage, and therefore would make it extremeely difficult to bypass the armor.

Not sure that there’s a simple way to address this, as it is I think the damage (including crit multiplier) is determined, then passed as a raw number to the monster object where it’s applied, when either the attack code needs to be monster-aware, or the monster code needs to be attack-aware.

[Stevensonz]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:35, topic:1786”]Pointy stick has 4/10 bash/cut damage, most robots have 10+ armor.
I’m assuming the problem you’re seeing is with a highly skilled character consistently getting crits against a robot, and therefore penetrating their armor?

If that’s the case, yea armor should generally be applied before the crit multiplier, perhaps with a caveat that really really highly skilled individuals should be able to attack armor weak points and therefore bypass it to some extent. (with perhaps a rating for armor coverage like we have now for players) Robots would have like a 99% coverage, and therefore would make it extremeely difficult to bypass the armor.

Not sure that there’s a simple way to address this, as it is I think the damage (including crit multiplier) is determined, then passed as a raw number to the monster object where it’s applied, when either the attack code needs to be monster-aware, or the monster code needs to be attack-aware.[/quote]

yes crits are 100% once you have high skill and stats and punches through armor like it’s not even there so it’s unrealistic (the mere fact you can have 100% critical without a cap limiting it to 70%-80% max chance is funny) mmm I like the idea of armor coverage and armor rating acting as dmg reducer for criticals.

Example Raw dmg of 9 vs 10 armor you would have 1 base dmg multiplied by crit and then modified by skills acting as piercing modifier and the weapon itself if it’s X% piercing to result higher than 1 base dmg multiplied by crit.

[Bladerock]

“Crits are overpowered at very high skills levels” should have been your argument from the start. Also, most every character living long enough to achieve skill levels so high they can one shot everything with a weakass weapon is old enough that it doesn’t matter.

Besides, that’s what skill rust was meant to stop. Maybe the devs should revert it to it’s whales era rates once the player reaches a skill level considered “high”. It’s hard to learn new things when you know pretty much everything. It’s also hard to keep a large library of information in your head without some books to review from time to time.

[Stevensonz]

[quote=“Bladerock, post:37, topic:1786”]“Crits are overpowered at very high skills levels” should have been your argument from the start. Also, most every character living long enough to achieve skill levels so high they can one shot everything with a weakass weapon is old enough that it doesn’t matter.

Besides, that’s what skill rust was meant to stop. Maybe the devs should revert it to it’s whales era rates once the player reaches a skill level considered “high”. It’s hard to learn new things when you know pretty much everything. It’s also hard to keep a large library of information in your head without some books to review from time to time.[/quote]

have you noticed once you hit 3-6 skill +good stats your pretty much critting on every attack? it’s still not the crits are overpowered by high levels it’s the crits themselves that are overpowered because they aren’t stopped by any armor if you had read above post.

your whales era is the backward direction your asking where installing more than 2 engines on a vehicle would be impossible if said character does get 20 in everything then it’s because of time and effort put into it. (Though if you noticed leveling skills past 10 become slower and harder once it gets higher) Also no one stops learning anything new so there is no there is too high limit but only it gets harder to progress your mastery.

armor for monsters is only effective on normal strikes atm they DO NOT consider using reduced base dmg to lower critical dmg dealt.

[Bladerock]

“having high skill levels is too powerful, but there shouldn’t be anything to prevent you from reaching those high skill levels.”

[system]

You have to understand that if melee becomes even less powerful nobody will use it.

Really guns are very OPed and the fact that melee can match the power of a gun isn’t being debated. I know their are punches that can kill in one hit, granted you need some skill and strength but nothing that isn’t achievable in cataclysm. Most guns shouldn’t be able to 1-shot a regular Z, these are walking corpses not giant floating head balloons. Cataclysms OPed guns are the problem. Not even a .50 caliber can 1-shot a normal human. An undead human wouldn’t be affected by organ damage like a normal human would. And head shots from guns are x5 less likely than they are now. Broken bones and skull damage are what would stop such monsters from attacking, not bullet wounds. Guns should do less damage.

“But bullets break bones and cause the skull to break” yeah, if your fucking walker Texas ranger. Shooting the Torso, arms, or legs would only rarely break bones WITH a high caliberfirearm and lots of luck.
Shooting the head of a human that is moving and is no wider than a dinner plate at more than 2 meters is HIGHLY unlikely, you would have more chance of hitting a cup at 20 meters.

Also, don’t discuss firearms because it only causes a lot of arguing.