I calculated the DPM of some end-game melee weapons with end-game encumbrance

[harison86]

Context; I’m trying to make a mod that balances the game’s difficulty scaling by adjusting the stats of various weapons, armors, and monsters (how does a tank drone with 300 max melee damage sound?). To that end, I had to calculate the Damage Per Moves of most of the end-game melee weapons to figure out how they perform with end-game gear on.

I just took their base damage and Moves Per Attack, and added 70 to the Moves Per Attack. That 70 comes from the encumbrance of: 1 fitted heavy survivor suit + 1 fitted survivor trenchcoat + 1 survivor rucksack + 1 fitted heavy survivor gloves. 50 encumbrance on the torso, 20 on the hands, +70 movement points to attack. Fairly typical end-game gear and encumbrance.

So the longsword for example without gear is 48 damage / 139 moves = 0.35. With 70 extra moves to attack that becomes 48 / (139+70) = 0.23.

I’m using this info to balance the mod to the best of my abilities, and I figured some people here wouldn’t mind having this information at hand as well. Note that this data doesn’t take account of misses, critical hits, Quick Strike, techniques, martial arts, diamond coating, etc. It is literally just Damage / (Moves per attack + 70). I believe Rapid Strike multiplies DPM by 1.32 with or without encumbrance.

D/M is the weapon’s base damage per move, (with encumbrance is in parentheses next to it).

Notable info:

[ul][li]Slow weapons with high damage scale better with high encumbrance than fast weapons with weaker hits.[/li]
[li]Japanese swords are still OP AF, even more so with Niten.[/li]
[li]Chainsaw weapons probably still suck.[/li]
[li]Survivor naginata doesn’t suck as much as its dpm implies. It has 4 techniques attached to it, including Rapid Strike.[/li][/ul]

[Coolthulhu]

Good idea
Though you could just PR the changes instead of having them only as a mod.

Some suggestions:

[ul][li]Survivor rucksack isn’t really useful for a generic combat build, it’s only really for looting. A combat character would instead drag a cart, to keep the encumbrance low.[/li]
[li]Hands aren’t hit too often. Regular survivor gloves might be better here.[/li]
[li]https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/wiki/Weapons-Balance#damage[/li][/ul]

[harison86]

Thanks for the feedback, I was going to make a mod because I’ve never used github before and had no idea where to start. But I suppose I’ll start learning using the stickied thread in The Toolbox. I’ll try balancing around survivor backpack and normal survivor gloves instead, and with that link in mind.

[Pandromidal]

There is already a way to get a list of the DPS for weapons (sort by DPS column).
http://cdda-trunk.chezzo.com/melee

Japanese swords are still OP AF, even more so with Niten.

Yes, I would say diamond vorpal Katana with Niten is arguably the best melee in the game

[harison86]

[quote=“Pandromidal, post:4, topic:14241”]There is already a way to get a list of the DPS for weapons (sort by DPS column).
http://cdda-trunk.chezzo.com/melee[/quote]
Indeed, I used that page and the item browser to obtain much of my information. But that only gives you the base DPS, without any encumbrance on the hands or torso. Most survivors don’t fight in the nude, and will have encumbering clothing that increases the amount of time it takes to attack, which affects the DPS of fast and slow weapons differently. I want to make sure that fast, slow, and somewhere-in-between weapons are all as equally viable as possible.

[kevin.granade]

I want to make sure that fast, slow, and somewhere-in-between weapons are all as equally viable as possible.

There’s a lot of wiggle room in this statement, so it’s hard to tell, but if you mean all weapons are equally viable, that’s not a valid goal for mainline, some weapons are just supposed to suck and some are supposed to be better. Also actually tweaking values based on average DPS without accounting for specials is going to be wrong, that means every weapon with beneficial techniques is automatically going to be better than average.
I’d totally believe that we have next to no meaningful balance right now though, so there’s room for improvement.

[harison86]

[quote=“harison86, post:5, topic:14241”]I want to make sure that fast, slow, and somewhere-in-between weapons are all as equally viable as possible.

There’s a lot of wiggle room in this statement, so it’s hard to tell, but if you mean all weapons are equally viable, that’s not a valid goal for mainline, some weapons are just supposed to suck and some are supposed to be better. Also actually tweaking values based on average DPS without accounting for specials is going to be wrong, that means every weapon with beneficial techniques is automatically going to be better than average.
I’d totally believe that we have next to no meaningful balance right now though, so there’s room for improvement.[/quote]
Right of course, I should specify that I meant equally viable within their respective tiers. A knife spear obviously shouldn’t be on the same level as a halberd. I meant something more like, a katana and a zweihander both have similar crafting requirements, but the katana is quite a bit more powerful in-game than the zweihander, even with heavy encumbrance penalties. Besides raw damage output, the katana as a faster weapon also offers more damage granularity for less overkill, more frequent dodge/block recharges, and easier positioning. A slow, hard-hitting weapon like the zweihander’s main boon is better armor penetration, but most enemies are so lightly armored it’s a non-factor, plus it’s heavier and bulkier. So the zweihander might be considered good, but the katana is great. I hope to be able to close that power/versatility gap within at least the end-game tiers, where the player is spoiled for choice as opposed to using whatever will get them to the next town alive. I won’t just be basing stat adjustments on DPS, but also on speed, techniques, martial arts, ease of acquisition, performance in different situations, storage, and basically anything else that a player might consider when choosing a melee weapon.

[zombiechow]

Pretty cool. I can tell you from experience that the combat chainsaw is fairly lackluster. While on paper it looks like twice as good as a fireaxe, I’d take even a fireaxe anyday over it.

[Rot]

I’ve always wanted to see reach attacks on large weapons like zweihanders and nodachis.

I mean, because of the length you should be able to poke enemies with it.

Hell, with the zweihander the hand guard could be a weapon, by grabbing the blade and swinging it. But of course this is balancing of existing weapons, not adding features.

[kevin.granade]

A slow, hard-hitting weapon like the zweihander’s main boon is better armor penetration, but most enemies are so lightly armored it’s a non-factor,

This s exactly the kind of thing that you shouldn’t be using to tweak the values, instead make a note to add more armored enemies.
If you balance one side of the equation in isolation, you achieve balance at the cost of variety.

[deoxy]

[quote=“harison86, post:1, topic:14241”]Notable info:

[ul][li]1. Japanese swords are still OP AF, even more so with Niten.[/li]
[li]2. Survivor naginata doesn’t suck as much as its dpm implies. It has 4 techniques attached to it, including Rapid Strike.[/li]
[li]3. Survivor machete definitely sucks tho.[/li][/ul][/quote]

1. With Niten, yes, they are very good (even after they nerfed Niten hard - it used to be just ridiculous), but without it… no, they are good (and they should be), but there are several weapons that are better (and they should be, as well). Such as the baseline machete, in most late-game cases, actually, and even with Niten, I’d take a machete with Eskrima every time. In the time it takes to kill two zombies with a katana, I’d kill three with a machete, even without styles. Even when I have Niten, I always switch to wakizashi from katana, if I can, as I can kill zombies with the same number of hits (ONE), just faster. Niten/katana is really only the best against single large targets (hulk, armored zombie, shoggoth) where all that extra damage isn’t just wasted.

2. Like your point in 2, survivor machete has 4 techniques, making the raw numbers harder to judge. That said, I don’t usually switch to it from a regular machete.

[Coolthulhu]

I’d totally believe that we have next to no meaningful balance right now though, so there’s room for improvement.

Melee weapon balance is actually relatively good, at least compared to things like food, mid-game armor and so on. There are exceptions, such as Niten, but overall it’s one of the best balanced parts of the game.
Early game armor also got some attention, but things do start to break once kevlar is considered. Then all balance is thrown out of the window the moment powered armor (true power armor and the rivtech one) appears.

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:10, topic:14241”]This s exactly the kind of thing that you shouldn’t be using to tweak the values, instead make a note to add more armored enemies.
If you balance one side of the equation in isolation, you achieve balance at the cost of variety.[/quote]

DPT is actually a good measure of weapon damage for other reasons: slow weapons tend to deal with encumbrance better (at same base DPT), but are weaker at lower encumbrance, as tend to overkill more and need to be dropped or stashed more often.
Ironically, trying to balance it by adding more armored enemies could easily lead to situation where variety is lost, because everyone needs to be trained in the use of can openers. At the moment, the number of armored enemies is too low, but it matters already (in early game): meeting a zed soldier is a good reason to switch from a knife to a pipe or even a rock. It disappears later on because the armor formula is too flat (katana can easily pierce soldier armor).

Either way, modified DPT is the only viable way (that I’ve seen anyone present so far) of getting the weapon variety actually happen. Letting some weapons be worse (barring obvious “tiers” like aforementioned knife spear vs halberd) would certainly affect weapon variety negatively.

Pretty cool. I can tell you from experience that the combat chainsaw is fairly lackluster. While on paper it looks like twice as good as a fireaxe, I’d take even a fireaxe anyday over it.

That’s why I linked the wiki page. +1 to-hit is worth roughly 10% increase in DPT there. That’s not a mathematically derived number and thus it’s not rock solid or anything, but it’s a good estimate of “should I pick x over y”.

[i2amroy]

Ironically, trying to balance it by adding more armored enemies could easily lead to situation where variety is lost, because everyone needs to be trained in the use of can openers.

This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes

[John_Candlebury]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:12, topic:14241”]Ironically, trying to balance it by adding more armored enemies could easily lead to situation where variety is lost, because everyone needs to be trained in the use of can openers.

This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]

Make the power armored zombie actually cool pls!

[DemAvalon]

[quote=“i2amroy, post:13, topic:14241”]This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]
just put this into the game, problem solved.

make sure it’s somehow smart enough to use its gun.

[DeWolf]

[quote=“DemAvalon, post:15, topic:14241”][quote=“i2amroy, post:13, topic:14241”]This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]
just put this into the game, problem solved.

make sure it’s somehow smart enough to use its gun.[/quote]
So an armored zombie that can use a gun?

[DemAvalon]

[quote=“DeWolf, post:16, topic:14241”][quote=“DemAvalon, post:15, topic:14241”][quote=“i2amroy, post:13, topic:14241”]This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]
just put this into the game, problem solved.

make sure it’s somehow smart enough to use its gun.[/quote]
So an armored zombie that can use a gun?[/quote]
An armored zombie hulk that can use a gun (those guys are huge compared to normal humans)

[DeWolf]

[quote=“DemAvalon, post:17, topic:14241”][quote=“DeWolf, post:16, topic:14241”][quote=“DemAvalon, post:15, topic:14241”][quote=“i2amroy, post:13, topic:14241”]This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]
just put this into the game, problem solved.

make sure it’s somehow smart enough to use its gun.[/quote]
So an armored zombie that can use a gun?[/quote]
An armored zombie hulk that can use a gun (those guys are huge compared to normal humans)[/quote]
Weird my interpretations of zombie were ones that were either slightly bigger or substantially larger that space marines(aren’t space marines like 10 feet tall?).

[DemAvalon]

Weird my interpretations of zombie were ones that were either slightly bigger or substantially larger that space marines(aren’t space marines like 10 feet tall?).

Just about (defenitly with terminator armor) without it though I’m not sure, I’m not really sure how tall zombie hulks are supposed to be, I just picture the tank from Left 4 Dead, and given the description of “arms as wide as trash cans” ,so maybe Speez mareens would be more of zombie brute without armor

[DeWolf]

[quote=“DeWolf, post:18, topic:14241”]Weird my interpretations of zombie were ones that were either slightly bigger or substantially larger that space marines(aren’t space marines like 10 feet tall?).

Just about (defenitly with terminator armor) without it though I’m not sure, I’m not really sure how tall zombie hulks are supposed to be, I just picture the tank from Left 4 Dead, and given the description of “arms as wide as trash cans” ,so maybe Speez mareens would be more of zombie brute without armor

It also depends one what kind of trash cans and also my spatial awareness may possibly be a bit shit.