Kinetic Force Doing Damage Through Armor

Game Talk The Drawing Board
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The current damage modeling in the game allows for you to hold onto a grenade and let it explode in your hand, or safely step on a landmine, provided you have enough armor. You can get punched with enough force to get blasted through a wall by a Hulk or Brute. The result is zero damage whatsoever, because the damage absorbed didn’t exceed the armor value.

This is nonsensical. The concussive force of the explosive would not stop at your armor, regardless of how thick or heavy it is. Even if the armor holds your body together against the concussive shockwave itself, you’re still talking about internal damage. You could pick yourself up and walk away, but you’d probably have blood leaking out of somewhere. Your flesh wasn’t damaged, but the shockwave went through you and into your squishier parts. This is why people can still get concussed while wearing a bicycle helmet; the skull didn’t break, but the brain still got slammed against the inside of its container.

I don’t know how one would go about implementing concussions, but I believe that even if you absorb enough damage with your armor after such a massive blow, there’s still damage being done, even if just a little bit. Enough damage dealt has a chance to cause pain, because there is still force traveling through the armor into you, and more force yet can trigger bleeding effects, if not internally than externally.

That’s what I propose anyway. I get a really hard time visualizing what happened when I get punched through a wall and straight up don’t give a fuck and continue on my way, or tank a round of bullets and get caught in a turret’s explosion with virtually zero consequence. That’s really not how it works.

I don’t believe that a player should be truly impervious to damage in any state. Even if its just a tiny single point of damage or triggered bleeding effects, something to remind the player of their mortality is extremely necessary, particularly in the late game. Feeling invincible is fun at first, but that’s a very short grace period before the inevitable boredom sets in and players start to look for better things to do.

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If your wearing power armor then your imune to attacks by z. Its realistic so we shouldn t change that.
The armor value of normal clothing is still to high though. Damage by lone z should be avoided more by dodging then by absorbing hits with “armor”.
Balancing out what amount of damage certain types of armor can actually mitigate will most likely have the wanted effect.
While simple clothing shouldn t protect much… a set of plate armor would negate all attacks by regular z.
Biting and punching… things z can do will simply not harm you through an actual armor .
We d need z wielding weapons or those that are extremely powerfull (like tanks for example whos normal attacks should be much more powerful) to hurt those survivors. Theres several enemies that are strong enough to aply blunt force truma through most armor. Like bears… getting hit by one will hurt even if your armor protects you from getting mauled emediatly.

What to do vs power armor? Well its just that strong. Once you fouind a set of pa your basicly imune to most attacks… we shouldn t change that cause it would feel artificial. Maybe make them rarer… You can consider the game won when you have pa and a source of food and energy.

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False. Regardless of whether you are hit by a z, a truck, or an explosive, some force is going to hit you and you are going to be damaged. Putting on a helmet doesn’t make you magically immune to any head trauma; it stops the worst of it, but there is still energy being transfered through you, into your head, and knocking your brains around. Armor is not a wall: armor is padding. Armor doesn’t stop energy, it minimizes what goes directly into us. If you are wearing plate armor and get doubled over by a cannonball to your gut, you’re still going to hurt and you’re still going to break something.

Biting and punching? No, that’s nothing at all if you have power armor. But at some point, there’s going to be enough force being delivered that you WILL feel it, and it might hurt. Again, armor is not a wall: armor is a cushion. It currently acts as a wall. This isn’t realistic. Physics still need to work.

I think that current amounts of damage dealt by enemies are sufficient; however, we need something to add to the current damage calculation so as to emulate the kinetic force being delivered, which still might hurt. For instance:

A survivor has a suit of plate mail. That’s pretty durable and solid. If a zombie punches the survivor, they are probably not going to feel anything at all. Energy is still being transfered to them, but it’s likely so little that it’s barely noticeable. It’s the second part of that which needs to be represented: the strike itself did nothing, and the force that made it through the armor also did nothing.

However, if we have, say, a Brute that walks up and slugs them in the gut - perhaps the armor stopped most of the damage, but that hit you hard enough to lift you up off your feet and propel you through the air, which is a lot harder than it sounds. That’s not a dainty little slap there. Damage still needs to occur, even if the armor stopped most of the hurt.

Every point of armor adds value to a…oh, let’s call it a ‘hurt threshold’ for now. This threshold is the last line of defense - what decides if that blow was felt enough to hurt, regardless of how much the armor absorbed.

Say you get hit in the leg by a Kreck. They don’t hit very hard, so let’s say you got…5 damage dealt. Just as a number. Pants can generally take that much damage and nullify it; however, we have to account for the energy being transmitted. Take the damage dealt and compare it to the threshold; if the damage exceeds the threshold value, then we say that while the blow did not actually do real damage, you still felt it, and it still affected the survivor. Either generate some minor amount of pain, or deal a single point of damage to the respective limb. This is because pants, while perhaps enough to stop the claws from getting to you, doesn’t stop the force nearly enough to keep it from hurting, or causing a bruise.

Now take the same survivor and replace their pants with proper power armor. Deal 5 damage to the leg again. Armor value cuts it off completely, just like the pants. However, now take that 5 damage and compare it to the threshold value, which is FAR higher than the pants. Both stop the damage of the blow itself, but unlike the pants, the power armor completely stops any sort of damage from being done. Both are thick enough to keep the brunt of the damage from hurting you, but only the power armor was sufficient to keep the kinetic force of the blow from doing anything. All damage is absorbed.

This would create a more fluid way that damage is dealt and would turn armor into padding instead of making it a sheer wall that damage below an arbitrary number cannot cross, and would be a much more realistic way of representing how energy transfers from one thing to another.

I should add that this would only happen if the damage is halted by the armor value; if you have damage that exceeds the armor, and then you compare it to the threshold value again, you’re essentially dealing the same blow twice, only slightly less blocked the second time. The threshold only applies if damage dealt is less than the armor value; something hits you hard enough and doesnt hurt you itself, but the energy was still enough to cause a bruise, or maybe split skin, or cause internal damage. This is what I want to see simulated. Because armor is padding, not a wall.

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[quote=“Valpo, post:2, topic:9537”]If your wearing power armor then your imune to attacks by z. Its realistic so we shouldn t change that.
The armor value of normal clothing is still to high though. Damage by lone z should be avoided more by dodging then by absorbing hits with “armor”.
Balancing out what amount of damage certain types of armor can actually mitigate will most likely have the wanted effect.
While simple clothing shouldn t protect much… a set of plate armor would negate all attacks by regular z.
Biting and punching… things z can do will simply not harm you through an actual armor .
We d need z wielding weapons or those that are extremely powerfull (like tanks for example whos normal attacks should be much more powerful) to hurt those survivors. Theres several enemies that are strong enough to aply blunt force truma through most armor. Like bears… getting hit by one will hurt even if your armor protects you from getting mauled emediatly.

What to do vs power armor? Well its just that strong. Once you fouind a set of pa your basicly imune to most attacks… we shouldn t change that cause it would feel artificial. Maybe make them rarer… You can consider the game won when you have pa and a source of food and energy.[/quote]
If you are dropped from airplane in a power armor, armor might survive the process but you most certanly not.

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False. Regardless of whether you are hit by a z, a truck, or an explosive, some force is going to hit you and you are going to be damaged. Putting on a helmet doesn’t make you magically immune to any head trauma; it stops the worst of it, but there is still energy being transfered through you, into your head, and knocking your brains around. Armor is not a wall: armor is padding. Armor doesn’t stop energy, it minimizes what goes directly into us. If you are wearing plate armor and get doubled over by a cannonball to your gut, you’re still going to hurt and you’re still going to break something.[/quote]

I meant regular z. So yes it makes you imune to theire punches and bites.

We have a complicated problem.
Not only Do certain enemys do way to few dmg considering what they are. But also does our armor stop to much dmg.
Finding the right balance there isn t easy.

I think we can do something like this:

All cutting or piercing dmg that is negated by armor should be cut in half for example and then the remaing dmg is lowered by the armors bashing resist.
At the same time lower armor bash resist values.

where in my post did you find me saying anything that would suggest that?

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where in my post did you find me saying anything that would suggest that?[/quote]

When you said power armor basically requires no change, and that you can win just by finding it and sufficient means of powering it. You should never be able to “win” the game. If you have no way to lose you have no reason to see it through to the win. If you can’t be hurt, you have no reason to do anything at all and probably will play some other game.

That’s what my suggestion was aimed to fix. It’d take a big chunk out of the inverse difficulty curve the game currently has. I don’t think it’d negate it, but it would definitely do the job until more content comes out.

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Well the enemies that can damage you through power armor are so rare that you could consider having won the game.
Also the problem is more the dmg the tank does not the fact that things like normal zs can t hurt you in pa. Why should something so insiginifcant like a regular z be able to hurt you in pa? It would feel wrong.
Make the tank z do more dmg. As well as other strong enemies that do not do as much damage as you would asume from what they are.

And if you have no reason to play anymore then stop.

Start over try something else.
Find purpose or create content.

edit:

The way you walk till you find the tools (like pa) to easily survive is what drives you. Some day you wanna be a badass who can take on most of the evils the cataclysm can offer smiling as you know they can t touch you. Thats a survivors goal.
the way there is to easy admittedly. Thats why i said regular clothing stops to much dmg. None of that should have bash def higher then uh like 1.

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…thus this thread. I don’t know the code enough to contribute but I think this idea of mine would keep the difficulty curve from tapering out at the end like it currently does.

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I agree that tank z and certain other strong melee monsters should be able to hurt you even in pa.

edit:

So what do you think about my suggestion with armor values?

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I love where this is heading.

But can we talk about the fact that cougars are absurdly common and can’t one-hit-kill even a brand new naked PC? Because they are 200 lb killing machines you can’t see coming who can see in the dark and jump horizontally 30 feet, with articulate fangs which are perfectly adapted to sever mammal spinal cords?

Edit: also moose. Also bears. Also does new England have brown bears? If so we should distinguish between black and brown, with seasonal chance to encounter the bear as a female with cub (s).

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Your absolutly right there.
All the predatory animals we encounter in cata are absurdly weak.
I can punch a bear to death naked no problem.

Take that nature. Human master race!!!

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I was thinking about that as I was thinking about how to handle internal damage, or broken bones.

You CAN get hit pretty hard, and at some point the force that makes it through the armor can make it to the bone and is sufficient to cause structural failure. So you could, theoretically, get hit with a cannonball in platemail and get your leg shattered.

I thought about having a certain threshold of damage being delivered to your outer limbs that has a chance to just straight up break it, but it’d have to be so large that it could only happen a couple of times naturally before that limb would be breaking anyway. Having that happen to your head or torso would also make sense, but might make the early game even harder, which is something I don’t want. Random insta-kills are something I’m very leery about suggesting.

Internal damage could be a thing though. If x damage happens then you have a chance to get the broken rib condition, which gives you a flat pain penalty that can’t go down below that limit until you fix whatever was broken. Maybe that happens to limbs: instead of outright being broken and unusable, the condition of a broken bone means you can never have the health of that limb go above a given health value, and constantly gives off a flat pain value which can’t be lowered until the condition is removed. Severity of these breaks can vary and are somewhat random. Maybe it’s only a bit off the end (a fracture); maybe it makes it this side of being completely unusable.

If you tweak with the bleeding variable you can simulate cut arteries, or internal bleeding - you either bleed or steadily yet slowly lose health until you fix whatever happened. This is life-threatening like it is in real life and demands immediate attention while still giving you the chance to make a close recovery if you got caught unprepared.

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I don’t think it’s inconceivable that an advanced and equipped PC could kill a bear in melee. But it should be a fool’s errand for virtually any new character. The thing about bears is that people get “mauled” by bears and survive… because those particular bears were curious, not hostile. But they are so strong that they can break your bones while rolling you over to see if there are berries under you. IIRC black bears can sprint 35mph. Presence of a bear with cubs near your hideout should be reason for an early-mid game character to pick up camp and seek refuge elsewhere. Zombears should be Bad News Bears. Minibusses effectively.

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That also comes back to the fact that if you spawn in any other time than spring, the game waits and progresses accordingly for you to start. That’s daft. When i set the game to winter, i don’t want to WAIT until winter, I want to START in winter! I bloody hate spring. I want to start off fresh without needing to wear winter clothes AND without having to fear zombified mooses of all things.

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Yeah, we definitely need to split the ability to start in any given season from the ability to have X amount of time passed when you start with a given scenario. (That way things like the LMOE scenarios still start with a certain amount of time passed, but things like starting in a different season don’t).

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Thats an interesting idea too but lets try fixing our armor problem first xD.

Here i ll give an example in numbers how my model might work:

Lets say we have pa that is designd to stop .50 ap bullets.

Meaning it neets to absorb like 60 cutting/piercing dmg + 40 the armor pen.
So it would need at least 100 cutting resist.
I am not sure whether theres a destinction between cutting and piercing dmg. There should be.
So as it is piercing dmg we say take 1/3 of the done pierce dmg which would equal 20 and substract that from the armors bashresist.
As it is designed to absorb the dmg of this round completely it should have at least 20 bash resist.

So we can safely set pa to a value of 100 cut resist and 20 bash resists and it would still serve its purpose.
Then we let the tank do more then 20 bash dmg and this one problem would be solved.

We could scale all other armor from there on downwards… for whatever makes the most sense.

Yeah, we definitely need to split the ability to start in any given season from the ability to have X amount of time passed when you start with a given scenario. (That way things like the LMOE scenarios still start with a certain amount of time passed, but things like starting in a different season don’t).[/quote]

I thought that if you set the starting season to winter in the options then it is winter… without time progressing? I though time only progresses from spring to winter when you chose the sheltered scenario… fascinating i never knew(or tried )

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do monsters have split damage on bash cut pierce like players? i think piercing damage should do well agaist armor but bash energy should pass through armor more easly than cut so enemies what do cut damage will be good agaist enemy who have no armor

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I’ll bring up separate, but related problem:

Player can pierce armor extremely easily, because player damage scales before armor scaling. Meaning that a skilled knife user can easily shank a fucking tank.
This could be fixed simply (but possibly not easily) by having the damage scale after armor.
Zombies don’t have scaling damage, so this wouldn’t buff player armor, only against NPCs.

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do you mean the added raw damge from skill lvls or the added critical damage?
I do agree that critical multiplier should be aplied after armor.
The added skill damage i picture as the survivor simply wielding the weapon more effectively so that he aplies his strength in better way to each blow… kinda like how with better technique you can throw farther thus it would make sense that you have better abillity to hit something hard enough to hurt it through armor with higher skill lvl.
Our problem with this damage so far was that it scaled up indefinatly… which got taken care of recently i think.

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Nope. It still scales indefinitely.

And I mean non-crit damage. It doesn’t make sense that you can slice through steel armor with a katana, no matter how skilled you are. Neither it makes sense that you can punch through a mountain of muscle just because you are really good at punching human-shaped walking corpses.

Critical hits add some armor piercing, but this amount is too small to ever be noticed, mostly because of that unrealistic pre-armor damage scaling.