Passive regen without sleep: Do we want it?

Game Talk The Bunker
21

Nanobots will be easier to balance when the limitations of bionics get implemented, no? Having only yay many slots for power limits their prime use.

Regening health points over time sounds like its asking for a more complex wounds system. As stated earlier inthread injuries more serious than minor cuts and bruises wont heal over the course of a day. We should not necessarily be encouraging combat more than we are. Should we?

Unarmored combat is a bad idea all of the time. Dodge skill would help there. Ive been wondering if dodge skill doesnt rise too fast for armored characters and if the penalty to it isnt too low. One or the other most likely.

But regardless, unarmored relies upon not taking damage to be viable. Thats the inherent risk of not wearing armor. More classes should have more armor maybe, but regardless of that combat should be avoided early game. Its a tenant that makes EG hard.

making combat hard despite armor is half the reason I have a mod. Adding health regen makes medium armor bad, and heavy armor (PA) even more worthwhile. The list of why this idea is bad can go on and on.

22
Regening health points over time sounds like its asking for a more complex wounds system. As stated earlier inthread injuries more serious than minor cuts and bruises wont heal over the course of a day.

Nah, just removing that restriction that you have to be asleep for your body to heal.
Realism isn’t important, but passive regen is still winning in this regard - mostly because the sleep regen thing is passive regen + unrealistic restrictions on it.

We should not necessarily be encouraging combat more than we are. Should we?

Can be discussed.
I’d like the combat to stop being so much kite-centric. There doesn’t need to be any more of it, just more of it should be actually dangerous instead of just tedious. Or at least just less tedious, without more dangerous.
That is, no standing back and safely poking with spear/throwing rocks/slinging pebbles. Or at least making it less mandatory, without making everything much easier.

More classes should have more armor maybe, but regardless of that combat should be avoided early game. Its a tenant that makes EG hard.

The problem is balancing this thing against everything else. One of the biggest problems in DDA since forever is the difficulty curve: (relatively) hard start, medium second day, easy afterwards.
Being able to actually take some hits would improve that immensely. Mid-game characters can apply tons of bandages, early game ones can’t.
The only problem here is that it might actually buff the mid-game characters more than the early game ones.

Adding health regen makes medium armor bad, and heavy armor (PA) even more worthwhile.

Medium armor is the best kind for general combat, though. It’s not bad if it gets nerfed a bit.
Heavy armor is only really good once it hits power armor tiers, though at this point the whole game balance goes out of the window - power armors weren’t designed, just added like that.

Reminder that we’re talking about regen speed measured in hours, not Call of Duty kind. So medium armor would most likely get a bigger buff here than full power armor, because power armor only takes scratches anyway (or acid, fire or tank shells).

Unarmored combat is a bad idea all of the time. Dodge skill would help there. Ive been wondering if dodge skill doesnt rise too fast for armored characters and if the penalty to it isnt too low. One or the other most likely.

Unarmored not being viable is also a problem. It means (among other things) that mutants with monstrous body parts necessarily suck.
Dodge skill gain won’t help.
Higher armor penalty to dodge could help, though.

Regen wouldn’t make that worse - it would make it so that taking a hit could sometimes be a better option than tiring self heavily to avoid taking a hit.

The list of why this idea is bad can go on and on.

So far your post isn’t explaining why is the idea bad, only stating tangentially related issues without explaining how would they make regen a bad idea.
Maybe with the exception of making medium armor bad (which would be pretty bad, since all armor choices should have a role), but that one is asserted, not explained.

23

If we are looking for ways to make the game more ‘combat friendly’, we should first look at what we are fighting and how we stop them.

The reason evo was put in was, afaik, to make endgame more challenging. and it was/is.

But, for the most part, and up until very recently, guns were not a threat, npcs were not a threat, and even the evo was pretty controllable. Were fighting overgrown rats and bumblebees. Ants the size of tabby cats.

their armor piercing potential is limited, their intelligence is questionable, and their combat in general is questionable. I think part of that is because kevlar vests and the like protect for so much. I have endgame monsters that do 40+ damage, I have midgame monsters doing 25-35. this still isnt always enough, but I can always boost their numbers to take advantage of the coverage system. Problem with coverage system is that of all-or-nothing.

If we want to make combat more friendly, dont allow people to heal any more than they are now; taking responsibility for your actions/dealing with chance is something we should be commending. I believe it even if the devteam isnt behind that logic completely. But, perhaps partial armor coverage would help? Instead of all of the damage bypassing armor, a failed roll can block some of it?

Perhaps we need to relook at acid/fire. Weve been working on the assumption people are walking in it. and they are. But also that they are walking into puddles of it. These enviornmental hazards represent a threat that is fixed by leg armor. and we grant the endgame armor kooshy bonuses to resistance with low, low, very low encumbrance. These endgame armors protect the legs, and we ignore the arms, head, et al. Ive seen more targeted attacks. Id like more, I thought it was good.

What we are dancing around is the disparity between the monsters of the game and bullets, and the protection being skewed to the latter… But we are finding out now, with more guns in the game bu hostiles, that it isnt enough. We lack a cover system, and we end up ignoring monsters and the idea that they arent trying to get under your armor.

We should be taking down armor and increasing dodge and encouraging noncombat or combat specialization. because in the wild its inevitable that a fighter in constant fights will be struck down.

Ive got more about it, but we should be focusing on making combat serious and perhaps more on stealth and alternatives than making combat a joke or casual in the EG or even MG. Did risk/reward go out a window?

24

What about, yes, you regenerate, but the sleep regeneration is needed just a tad to make it balanced?

25

I keep forgetting my mod is a different beast by such a long shot. Forgot it was so easy in basegame.

And remember; a new character starts with 0health.

An endgame survivor with 20 liters of tea and 309 vitamins will have 90 health.

This regen we will help these op monsters more than the newbiechar.

Ditto for a newbie raiding towns at night. The endgame character facing spitters and shockers benefits more than a newbie fighting a tough zombie.

I’d even champion halved sleep healing, now that I’m back home. If we kept about current items levels of healing.

But I’d like to see a max on how many healing over time you can use. Like say 3 bandages per part like you get with morale bonuses. Eventually the gain from them is diminished.

So let’s see

-granting regen helps mid/endgame characters more than newbies
-we’ve in this thread said that mudgame is like day2 or day3 so this benefit, aimed at newbieschars is largely not going to alter the ungodly short early game.
-a nonthreatening start, such as an evac shelter, has even less reason to need regen since they neither face early combat nor face it without a chance to make armor.

-It siddles the real issue of combat being ‘too easy/too hard’ or unbalanced by firearm armor
-it avoid s talking about how underpowered moose, bears, etc are. Your heavy survivor suit don’t save you if a tons worth of bear steps on you.
-it balances endgame exploits up instead of needing endgame gear down, and ignores the complaints that that gear is unbalanced.

  • it attempts tojustify itself with or make viable unarmored play, which is awful.

-it reduces the risk of combat and whole reason we sprinkle items in basements or fields. Items are a reward for proficiency. Items are why people want more magical life -to go loot more- by mitigating the risk of combat you detract from the meaningfulness of obtaining that gear.

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26

I’d support passive non-sleep healing as proposed by Coolthulhu. Then you could repurpose traits like Fast Healer and Regeneration to be actually useful, like by making them act as multipliers for said passive regen to increase effectiveness.

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27

I support this idea. It would feel more natural if we heal all the time. I get that many people say that realism isn t important but to me it helps greatly with forging a world in my mind. The more things that are off the harder it gets. And i realy do not see a problem with this balance wise if we do make it so that we regen rougly as much hp over the course of one day(24 hours) like we do now over one night.

28

i think a passive regen during day would make sense, as long as night regen is nerfed a bit. i’m not sure how current regen works now, like it heals a given number of HP or a percentage of total health ?
Also, if implemented or not, it would also make sense for me that regen would be slower the more damage a limb has taken. A scratch heals faster than a cut, and a broken limb would heal slowest. Maybe implement different regen rates from red to yellow than from yellow to green to full health ?
Not sure though how fast it should be. A scratch should heal in one day, while a red health status should take maybe a week ? As it is now, it does not make much sense that i should heal an almost destroyed limb in 2 nights sleep, no matter how many bandages/aid kits i apply. On the other hand, it should not be as much as to make the player have too much non combat/exploration time, because it risks becoming boring fast.

LE : so maybe add a 5th option, both day/night regen, but nerfed ? :slight_smile:

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I doubt it matters how bad a wound is . The healing time would probably only depend on whether it can heal efficiently.

If you have a wound with foreign objects in it it ll take longer or even get worse on its own.

Or if a cut isn t stitched together properly it will take a lot longer then it would.

I mean if properly treated dmg healing time should be directly proportional to the size of the injury.

So yes and no i guess?

It might make sens to implement negative effects that inhibit healing.

Like poison / infection / necrotic tissue / deep cut / objects(bullet tip, bone splinters n good old dirt) … ect

30

Beating to almost dead does not matter at all in the game as long you could get away. This was 1 of the reasons ( other that the insane lootporn) I lost intrest in Cata.

31

If i might, personally i lvoe the idea, but it need change.

For example, Healing naturally would be (whitout trait/mutation/bionic) 1 HP per hours, that way it would be there to help in crisis, but not enought for us to relly only on it.

Also, sleeping should be halved, seriously i had 10 hp left in my whole body and i was on foot in two day ?

32

What are you even talking about?
Are you implying that not having to spam bandages (which are cheap) or tediously kite things will somehow remove risk/reward from the game?

Are you incapable of actually arguing against the idea of regen and need to emotionally overreact every time or do you just not understand how would it work and imagine doomsday scenarios without any evidence for them?
If you have arguments, use those. Don’t add those retarded “THE GAME WILL BE FUCKING RUINED” lines because they only show that you don’t understand what you’re arguing against.

But, perhaps partial armor coverage would help? Instead of all of the damage bypassing armor, a failed roll can block some of it?

This could work, but would need a good design behind it. Could, not necessarily would. And then all armors would need to be rebalanced to use it.

What we are dancing around is the disparity between the monsters of the game and bullets, and the protection being skewed to the latter.

Unfortunately that’s unfixable without organization changes. Kevin is very much against bullets being designed well, it all has to be “”“realistic”“”, meaning 9mm to the jaw has to be more dangerous than getting head smashed with a sledgehammer or getting a spear through the face.

If we are looking for ways to make the game more 'combat friendly', we should first look at what we are fighting and how we stop them.

We aren’t, we’re looking for ways to make it less tedious and more varied. Currently the best way to handle threats is to lure them one by one and then use weak ranged weapons to pick off enemies who can’t deal with something that kites them. And also fight just before sleeping, because then you wake up at full hp and don’t need to eat bandages.

Regen is just one idea to unfuck the combat. It doesn’t need to be more action-oriented, but it must not reward tedious kiting, bushknifing, wreckknifing and pit spamming like the current system does.
Regen is a good way to solve it because we already have bandagespam, meaning it wouldn’t upset the balance.

This regen we will help these op monsters more than the newbiechar.

No, because OP monsters just bandagespam, thus skipping the whole regen system.

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“THE GAME WILL BE FUCKING RUINED”

youre the only one saying this. If youre going to make a meme out of me saying I had to take off to go home then at least try. I listed several reasons why this regen was fixing symptoms but not problems.

…

34

Quoting you:

making combat a joke or casual in the EG or even MG. Did risk/reward go out a window?
The list of why this idea is bad can go on and on.

If you don’t want to be called out on illogical reactions, don’t add those parts to your posts. Simple as that.
The argument against regen should come from objective ideas, not that “and it’s also shit because I say so” at the end. If you need to state it is shit for it to look bad, then it isn’t shit.

You had some hit and miss arguments there. Focus on those, not on baseless assertions.

35

Let’s go back to normal discussion, cause this is quite an interesting idea. I think going to sleep almost dead and waking up perfect is a bit too gamey for my tastes, so needing sleep and adding the live healing would be quite good. I’m repeating myself, but I think I wasn’t heard, so excuse me if I bother someone!

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36

Quoting you:

making combat a joke or casual in the EG or even MG. Did risk/reward go out a window?
The list of why this idea is bad can go on and on.

If you don’t want to be called out on illogical reactions, don’t add those parts to your posts. Simple as that.
The argument against regen should come from objective ideas, not that “and it’s also shit because I say so” at the end. If you need to state it is shit for it to look bad, then it isn’t shit.

You had some hit and miss arguments there. Focus on those, not on baseless assertions.[/quote]

Baseless? Risk/reward is not a valid point? Rhetoric is unappreciated? I mean your ‘calling’ these out and ignoring that a wallpost preceded them then I think were missing a point or two here.

there is an objective case to be made that adding the ability to not lose ingame time sleeping (as opposed to crafting or reading, which presumably will also heal you) or spending resources to heal is going to mitigate the risk.

there is an objective case to be made that turning life into a resource that is easy to spend for longterm item gain cheapens the experience.

there is objective cases there. dont downplay them because you cant make a real retort.

37

if this passive regen gets implemented, what would be a good regen rate ? Imo 1 hp every 2h during non-sleeping periods and 1 hp / h during sleep would be just fine for me. Also, how does using bandages / first aid influence the current rate ?

38

But why is that even required desired? Thats so low as to not have a practical impact on play.

Thats 6 points for a 12 hours shift on books or crafting. 12 hours is more time than usually available to a survivor who came back from a raid on xyz. So what are the 6 points for? It wouldnt even mitigate any of the damaging effects that actually hurt you.

39

A reasonable rate for magical skyrim healing is proabably something like double that. if you gain 1hp per part per hour, based on health, it would be ‘reasonable’.

But Id rather see, if we must have it, health regen based on health and on total bp damage. So a bp with 78/80 health will heal faster than one with 2/80. Minor cuts and bruises will heal, but larger dings and gashes wont.

@coolthulu

Im seeing you call out my own arguments on why this shouldnt be added, but so far the arguments of why it should be added have been entirely lacking in merit. This is asking about a new feature, and if there isnt a good answer for why we are going to add it then it doesnt matter what I argue. The idea cant hold water on its own; it has no business being here.

  • Claiming it benefits new players who cant bandage spawn -> then pointing out that the EG ends in like 18 hours after Dday.
  • Claiming it helps balance overpowered traits instead of nerfing those traits into balance.
  • Claiming it makes combat more casual -> allows for the snatching of items faster -> then complaining about how endgame has no challenge. So why are you seeking to accelerate the journey to endgame.
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Claiming risk/reward without justification is baseless.

“Rhetoric” that is about shitposting is unappreciated.

there is objective cases there. dont downplay them because you cant make a real retort.

I can’t downplay them and a real retort when you assert, with no justification, that adding moderate regen will make “risk/reward go out a window”.
I can only argue with points that make sense. For those that are just “it’s bad because it’s shit”, the proper argument is “stop shitposting”.

And don’t get pissy about objective cases that could have been there but WEREN’T. You pretend I’m downplaying your cases, but I literally couldn’t have done that because you didn’t present them back then.

there is an objective case to be made that adding the ability to not lose ingame time sleeping (as opposed to crafting or reading, which presumably will also heal you) or spending resources to heal is going to mitigate the risk.

Sleep is pretty limited. This would be a good argument if you could just sleep at will, but during early game, you often want to sleep but can’t.

there is an objective case to be made that turning life into a resource that is easy to spend for longterm item gain cheapens the experience.

“Cheapens the experience” implies subjective.

Claiming it benefits new players who cant bandage spawn -> then pointing out that the EG ends in like 18 hours after Dday.

Nowadays it’s more like 7 days. Faster if player finds a gun stash.
Letting players actually fight instead of kiting is not a bad thing. Forcing kiting does not make the game more meaningful, just more sluggish.
Actually being able to take a hit would do wonders for dodge playstyle (where you have to expect to get hit once in a while), as opposed to heavy armored one where you control all damage input carefully and there is no place for spontaneity.

Claiming it helps balance overpowered traits instead of nerfing those traits into balance.

What
You mean fast heal/regen?
Those are incredibly weak traits that would actually gain an use here - one that they can’t have with current model.

Claiming it makes combat more casual

Who is claiming this? Are you talking about yourself in third person or are you implying I want casual combat when I said the exact opposite?

I want combat that is meaningful, not about kiting brainless mobs into windows to safely dispatch them. Regen alone won’t do that, but it will not make it less meaningful, while also opening a way to add more hard to avoid attacks.