Healing by medical items should be more useful

[latogato]

Healing items should be help the player but they are not, while the buffed healing progress is more realistic, it fails to help the player. If our player character luckily survive a deadly encounter they become so fragile it could be a miracle to survive the way to a safe place.

The pc should be killed if the player made a mistake or the pc should have a chance to survive if not. A seriously wounded pc is somewhere between them but i think this kind of “prolonged death by chance” is bad.

I think medical items should have a minimal healing value and if the hp of the limb is below that value then it should set to that value. A minimal instant healing for the very damaged limbs. We could say - if we need a realistically sound explanation - it is the result of the medical stabilization.

So for example John the hobo got some bullets from a turret. His left arm on 15/80, his torso is 3/80. Lets pretend the bandage has 10 minimal healing value. John tending his woulds, his left arm get the usual faster healing buff while his torso hp increasing to 10 and then get the faster healing. This way John has a chance to retreat and will be not killed by a random black rat on the way home.

[darktoes]

I don’t know if that’s a good way of going about it, but I agree that it might be worth revisiting some method of making hp management more useful. I wonder if it might be better to reduce zombie damage across the board, making it harder to get badly injured to the point where you need medical attention. Like you said, getting badly injured is basically a death sentence unless the player can make it somewhere safe, in which case they sleep and it’s now trivial.

Making it harder to get badly injured, and limiting serious injuries to attacks that could realistically cause them, would mean you could make it so that serious injuries require medical attention to be healed without completely ruining existing balance. e.g Standard zombie attacks can’t reduce a limb past 20% damage, but bites can. If a limb gets below say 60% hp, sleep healing slows substantially for it. Below 30% it stops entirely, and the player has to expend supplies to get it to start healing again, but once it does it continues at whatever rate the medicine gave until it reaches 30%. You could have those numbers raised or lowered by health, strength, CBMs, etc.

[latogato]

I wonder if it might be better to reduce zombie damage across the board,

Low damage was problem in the past, it took away the challenge because most zombies could not penetrate armors. This is why we have monster evolution, to give challenge to the players. Sadly it turned into an arms race for a while, this is why we have weapons with high damage and armors with high resistance and we have monsters with insta-kill high damage too…

making it harder to get badly injured to the point where you need medical attention.

I think it is not a problem if the game is difficult and can kill the player character. The problem when it is fail to do it and prolong the end. Which is unavoidable, because there will be always a deadly situation with lucky escape. So, i think the only thing we can do is to give a chance to survive after that lucky escape, so the medical items should give some instant hps.

Standard zombie attacks can’t reduce a limb past 20% damage, {…} Below 30% it stops entirely, and the player has to expend supplies to get it to start healing.

That would turn the standard zombies into a pushovers, while a seriously damaged pc would be doomed without medical items. I would like the opposite of this.

[SirPendrak]

Maybe buff somehow medical items, and nerf sleephealing a lot? Right now, i feel that my 8 first aid character treats 95% of wounds by sleeping, only using bandages and disinfectant when bleeding/deepbitten/came out from a heavy fight, but even when it was a hard battle with 20% hp left, i use some meds, quickly try to escape to safety, take some sort of sleeping drugs - and go to sleep. This way my character doesnt even notice if wounds were med-treated or not, because one good sleep heals like 70%hp anyway, and 30min. escape from sticky situations wont change much when bandaged or not.

[Aabbcc]

What do you guys think about some healing items granting temporary HP? Rather than instantly healing or granting very slow regen, they could grant the regen and a bit of a buffer of non-stacking temporary HP.

Fluff-wise, you could call it placebo, morale, or drugs.

[latogato]

I like the idea, medical items could be heal much more than now, because they make no big difference. But sleephealing nerf would punish the beginner characters and they are vunerable already.

But my post mostly about that situation when you stand far away from a safe place with few hp left. An instant heal to a minimum hp would solve that situation. Maybe better first aid skill could give more minimum hp.

[TheZoneWizard]

The problem with breaking bones and setting them, only to have a fly bump you and it re-breaks is the worst problem to plague the medical aspect of this game. Unless this has been addressed. That is what is needed to be fixed first. If so? Good.

That said, Stimpacks. Seriously. The game can make great use of them and place them in sensitive areas. Medical stations and storage bays of Labs. Military bunkers and a rare instances of storage areas in FEMA camps. Pretty much any place of military unit would be placed. Soldiers obviously would have rare spawning of them. Military bases in the medical buildings for certain. This would also give more reason to raid a base at the risk of stupid robots that shoot and fly.

[darktoes]

Low damage was problem in the past, it took away the challenge because most zombies could not penetrate armors.

Then increase player health instead. The point is to make it so players can take more damage before their sleep healing stops.

So, i think the only thing we can do is to give a chance to survive after that lucky escape, so the medical items should give some instant hps.

I disagree. That just means that low level players spend their time running around on 5-10% health spamming makeshift bandages after every fight. On top of that, it would be really unrealistic, which is one of the main reasons instant healing was changed in the first place.

That would turn the standard zombies into a pushovers, while a seriously damaged pc would be doomed without medical items. I would like the opposite of this.

They wouldn’t be pushovers, it just means that 1v1 a player could pretty easily kill a standard zombie. With multiple zombies they can grablock you and bite you until you die, as normal. It just means that you don’t end up with “death by a thousand bruises” from every minor swipe a rat took at you.

A seriously damaged PC SHOULD be doomed without medical supplies. You said it’s not a problem if the game can kill the player, well being seriously injured should be one of those conditions. It’s not even instant or definite, it just means the player has to be careful until they can scrounge up some bandages.

[latogato]

I disagree. That just means that low level players spend their time running around on 5-10% health spamming makeshift bandages after every fight. On top of that, it would be really unrealistic, which is one of the main reasons instant healing was changed in the first place.

I wrote it would give instant hit points to X if the hp is under that X (the example was 10), it not enough to fight against zombies but enough to flee and survive some damage on the way home.

It just means that you don’t end up with “death by a thousand bruises” from every minor swipe a rat took at you.

The problem is your idea requiring extra attention and understanding while the player mow down countless enemies. They grabbed my pc or not? Do i have enough hp left to sleepheal? The standard hit point system is a good in a game where a single protagonist fight against countless enemies, because it gives a clear picture at glance.

A seriously damaged PC SHOULD be doomed without medical supplies. You said it’s not a problem if the game can kill the player, well being seriously injured should be one of those conditions. It’s not even instant or definite, it just means the player has to be careful until they can scrounge up some bandages.

I totally understand a hunt for a medicine is fun and adventurous. But when you just survived an explosion, bullets, etc and left only with few hp, it would be a prolonged death sentence. More hp or less damage won’t solve this because no matter what, this can be happen. And it is bad.

They wouldn’t be pushovers, it just means that 1v1 a player could pretty easily kill a standard zombie. With multiple zombies they can grablock you and bite you until you die, as normal.

Already too easy to lure zombies one by one to the player, you idea would make the player unbeatable. Running into multiple zombies and fight is stupid, but everyone saw a zombie movie and know that.

Also if easy to kill them then i would call them pushovers. But i agree, zombies can be too strong for a beginner, but i don’t think it is a big problem - because there are plenty of workaround -, except the fast zombies and the zombies with ranged attacks, they can slow down the character and then the player is out of options. Anyway, as the player get some equipment they become a pushover anyway, but it is an old problem, there are huge difference between monsters, thanks to the “arms race”. They should change everything to make the monsters dangerous but managable. But it is very difficult, i don’t think it will ever happen.

[darktoes]

I wrote it would give instant hit points to X if the hp is under that X (the example was 10), it not enough to fight against zombies but enough to flee and survive some damage on the way home.

Unless I’m mistaken, a str 10 character has 100 hp per limb. 10 hp isn’t enough to survive anything with. I don’t see what actual meaningful difference this would make. If the character gets below 10hp and somehow survives without breaking the limb, then a few extra hp isn’t going to fix their situation.

The problem is your idea requiring extra attention and understanding while the player mow down countless enemies. They grabbed my pc or not? Do i have enough hp left to sleepheal? The standard hit point system is a good in a game where a single protagonist fight against countless enemies, because it gives a clear picture at glance.

In combat it makes no difference whatsoever. Out of combat it’s simple, is my healthbar green? Full sleep healing. Yellow? Quarter sleep healing. Red? I need meds. Far more simple than “If your health is below 10%, medical supplies will bring it to 10% in addition to giving a slow healing effect.”

I totally understand a hunt for a medicine is fun and adventurous. But when you just survived an explosion, bullets, etc and left only with few hp, it would be a prolonged death sentence. More hp or less damage won’t solve this because no matter what, this can be happen. And it is bad.

It’s a death sentence regardless. 10% hp won’t save you from anything with teeth, and if you got the crap kicked out of you in the first place, I can almost guarantee there’s something else around to finish you off.

If a character can limp home on 5% hit points after taking a grenade to the face, sleep it off and be back to 100% in the morning I call that a bad design choice for a game with such focus on realism.

Already too easy to lure zombies one by one to the player, you idea would make the player unbeatable. Running into multiple zombies and fight is stupid, but everyone saw a zombie movie and know that.

Not really. Things rarely go to plan in this game. If it were so easy to kite zombies and never get hit, we wouldn’t be having this argument about healing.

Also if easy to kill them then i would call them pushovers. But i agree, zombies can be too strong for a beginner, but i don’t think it is a big problem - because there are plenty of workaround…

The zombies don’t get any weaker in practice, it just means that minor fights are less immediately damaging. You will still go down hard if a couple of zombies come at you, but it will make minor 1v1 fights a bit less gamey.

[latogato]

10 hp isn’t enough to survive anything with.

I’m fine with 10 hp, but it was just an example, it can be more.

10% hp won’t save you from anything with teeth,

Until you can run away it will. Most enemies has small detection range or/and slow and you can run away or close a door behind you even if they hits you once or twice. Half of the creatures’ max damage is less then 10 including the most common monsters.

sleep it off and be back to 100% in the morning

I think it is in the lore, the blob is in everything. It raise the dead and heal the living. Which is a fine explanation of the game mechanic.

If it were so easy to kite zombies and never get hit, we wouldn’t be having this argument about healing.

You talk about the zombies. Zombies are easy you can use a reach weapon, you can hit and move, you can lure them into obstacles, you can lure them into fire, you can lure them to other monsters. You get seriously wounded when you are overconfident or when you met a too dangerous enemy and it shred you before you can run away, hide or lure it to another monster. That is why i used in my example the hobo got shot by a turret. It is just one wrong step.

The zombies don’t get any weaker in practice, it just means that minor fights are less immediately damaging. You will still go down hard if a couple of zombies come at you, but it will make minor 1v1 fights a bit less gamey.

If they are useless alone then they are useless.

Far more simple than “If your health is below 10%, medical supplies will bring it to 10% in addition to giving a slow healing effect.”

Your idea is to force the player to take risk when they are already half beaten. It just make things worse. Also it gives no solution to the problem i wrote about.

I don’t think the damage system should be reinvented, i will be satisfied if they resolve that rare but annoying problem i explained in the first post.

[darktoes]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

[kevin.granade]

If our player character luckily survive a deadly encounter they become so fragile it could be a miracle to survive the way to a safe place.

This is 100% working as intended. If you’re that badly injured and in a dangerous area, you’re living on borrowed time.

i think this kind of “prolonged death by chance” is bad.

This is also working as intended, you have to deal with your fragile state for a long time, encounters are not isolated from each other by having easy healing options between conflicts.

Short term wound management takes the form of managing penalties from wounds, not eliminating the damage. Eliminating damage takes time, period.

[dissociativity]

Sleep healing does definitely need to be nerfed though, and perhaps with medical items it is increased, even a starting player can get some boiled bandages at least without too much work.

[John_Candlebury]

Bright nights does what the OP asks, you can play with it on or just copy paste the healing effects from the mod into vanilla/a personal mod

[latogato]

Thanks for the info, i will try out the Bright Nights.