Goodbye to OP shopping carts

[Mantar]

Welp, it’s happened. As of #7069, shopping carts are no longer boardable. No more can you climb into a cart and be this guy:

Immune to Acid

[sound of taps playing in the distance]

No longer can I push my wounded companion into a shopping cart for a quick getaway, either. Hopefully we get some better “please run away with me” options in dialog soon, or my NPCs are gonna have to stay behind from now on.

[DeWolf]

Edit the json.
And now here I am trying to meet the minimum character requirement.

[Mantar]

Yeah, I know, and I might do that – dragging my foolish companions away from the horde in a cart has saved them many times. (But I really posted this because it’s probably the last time that stupid webm I have will be relevant, so I might as well convert it to a shoddy gif and post now before it’s too late.)

[gareth_tucker]

My big worry with this new update is that zombies are now much more likely to attack your shopping cart.

What happens to the contents of a basket when its destroyed? is the player warned in any way?

[psyxypher]

Contents spill out on the ground.

Does anyone know the reasoning why you can’t board shopping carts anymore? Seems a tad unrealistic if you ask me.

…At least I can still use Cargo Carriers as seats (I think). If not, I’ll need to expand my Scouting Vehicle.

[kevin.granade]

See https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/22802 for further discussion on the issue (though it hasn’t started yet).

In short, the fact that draggable vehicles are such a great tactical aid is unintended and silly, making shopping carts un-boardable is a stopgap that patches the issue for the most common offender.

I’m open for a more nuanced fix, but as yet no one has proposed anything other than making them un-boardable.

[gareth_tucker]

Would making AI attempt to path find around tiles containing vehicles rather than acting like they’re not there (if board-able) help at all? or at least increase the path cost weight for vehicle tiles.

Seems like the big bug here is that zombies are willingly stepping onto difficult terrain when there are better options available. Which makes sense in the case of say rubble as zombies aren’t smart enough to path find around it, but in the case of shopping trolleys they should probably swarm around the obvious waist high barrier unless they have no other choice.

Note that I haven’t looked at the pathfinding code so this may be impossible to implement without a major overhaul or causing major performance impacts.

[psyxypher]

I’ve brought this up before, and I’m definitely not the only one who’s done so: Zombies could use better pathfinding. Yes, they’re supposed to be practically brainless, but how much energy can it possibly take to program “Take the path of least resistance”?

I just find it a bit insane (and also annoying) that a zombie would rather rip its way through a parked car instead of simply walking around it. This makes sense if say, the zombies needed to pass a big barrier of rubble to get to you (as gareth_tucker has pointed out), or not noticing clearly marked pitfall traps right in front of them. At least in crossing a pile of rubble, they have an unobstructed path that’s just difficult for them to walk over. But a car is both difficult to move through and an obstructed path.

Am I making sense? I feel like I’m either not making sense or coming off too whiny.

[kevin.granade]

In the context of extremely short-term navigation like, “which of these three squares should I step into” and “should I climb over this table, or take a single step to the left” it makes sense.

[ChunkOfMeat]

The wheelchair still remain, they be boarded by design.

[FurryDegenerate]

First of all: Thank god I haven’t updated my game for a while (I can still use Artyom’s mod)

Second of all: That webm made me laugh more than I would like to admit

Third of all: A probably unpopular idea but, make acid damage vehicles that dont have wheels (Because more often than not, I end up having a cart with its wheels broken) and wheels that dont have rubber on them, i.e shopping cart casters.

Fourth of all: A random thought, but I now suddenly want a wheeled file cabinet.
EDIT: Or if enough strength, http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/14348-6589209.jpg

[kuros]

I notice a strong preference in these discussions for making the game harder. “Shopping carts are too easy. Spears make it too easy.”

As a relatively new player who couldn’t survive longer than 2 days in game until I spent 4+ hours watching tutorial videos, I’d like to suggest that the goal should be to make the game’s difficulty progress more smoothly.

Zombies are mindless pits of hunger. They see food and they walk towards it. No, they shouldn’t be smart enough to take a step to the left when it’s a better choice. They’re gorram zombies. Now, migos, on the other hand, I could see employing advanced tactics.

[kevin.granade]

I’d like to suggest that the goal should be to make the game’s difficulty progress more smoothly.

That is exactly what this kind of change does, right now you either don’t know about the trick, and fight zombies in some other way, or you know about the shopping cart trick/exploit and it makes things immensely easier, until it stops working for some reason, and it gets immensely harder again. That’s the opposite of a smooth progression.

[kuros]

I was commenting on the discussion about improving pathfinding across the board, not the shopping cart thing. I just read about that today, and don’t have an opinion yet because I don’t know what y’all have done yet. I’ll comment on it when I see the details.

The folks updating the code are clearly thinking about their choices a bunch. It’s the experienced player base constantly pushing for a greater challenge that I generally object to. Any game gets easier when you’ve put hundreds of hours into it. I feel like these discussions need a vocal newb to counter that.

If it were me, who has barely spent any time at all thinking about this stuff, I would probably have tried increased the sound generation from dragging around a shopping cart, or substantially decreased your speed, before saying you can’t jump into a shopping cart. But I haven’t read any of the vision statements, so, you know, f*** my opinion

[redxlaser15]

Wait, you could board the shopping cart WITHOUT INSTALLING A SEAT? I’ve played for so long, and yet, this simple thing has never come to my attention. Well, even if the shopping cart stays board-able, I’d still never do that since the only thing I ever used them for and will us them for is storage. Basically my shopping cart
I got all the food yo

[kuros]

If you install a seat in your shopping cart, then every time you grab it, one of your NPC buddies will try to hop in for a ride.

[redxlaser15]

I don’t actually have many NPC buddies since they like to wonder into hordes in their undies with only a plank of wood to fight with.

The cool people fight in their undies BUT with a spotted cape draped along their shoulders mightily! And neither do they use a weapon, fists is all they need! Tralalaaaa!

Mind blowing ain’t it?

[mark]

I’m open for a more nuanced fix, but as yet no one has proposed anything other than making them un-boardable.

• Increase the time it takes to drag a cart that has a monster in it, and move the monster with the cart. Currently, dragging seems to entirely ignore monsters on the dragged vehicle.

• Have zombies sometimes smash small vehicles, instead of boarding them. Zombies already sometimes smash terrain instead of moving onto it, but arbitrarily don’t do the same to vehicles.

• Have zombies sometimes shove small vehicles out of the way instead of boarding them. I’m hesitant to suggest this because I think in most situations it won’t make much difference, but maybe I’m wrong.

• Add a time cost to 'G’rabbing and possibly releasing vehicles, as there currently is no cost. Then, either add ways to lose your grip or incentives to intentionally release it.

[redxlaser15]

Add a time cost to 'G’rabbing and possibly releasing vehicles, as there currently is no cost. Then, either add ways to lose your grip or incentives to intentionally release it.

Yes, it should take a whole turn grab the handle of a shopping cart right next to you… Hmm, maybe like 10 points (out of a turn of 100) would work, even then it’s pretty fast and simple to grab a handle.
Other than that the rest don’t seem like a bad idea.

[mark]

As far as realism is concerned, setting aside a weapon and getting a useful grip on a shopping cart should probably take a non-trivial amount of time, moreso if your weapon is cumbersome or if the cart is heavily loaded and requires a better grip and stance to move.

However, the issue at hand is that cart-like vehicles are too useful as portable defenses. Making it possible to lose a grab in combat, and require time to reacquire it, could make carts less useful in combat without significantly compromising their utility for transporting items.