Everybody was Kung-Fu Fighting

OvenBaker · 2014-02-26T10:37:01.000Z

I’ve got a big and chunky extension of martial arts underway currently. Big additions are:

[ul][li]solid support for weapons in martial arts styles[/li]
[li]on-dodge and on-block counters[/li]
[li]different speed techniques (slow / fast / in between)[/li][/ul]

As part of this, it would be great to add a few new styles oriented on weapon-based martial arts. However, I’m no expect on the subject, so I’d love some input on how to discriminate between them in a way that makes them effectively feel different in-game. Currently, I’ve got Eskrima and Fencing in there. Eskrima has a lot of very fast attacks, so it makes you feel like you’re delivering a flurry of attacks. Fencing has some buffs on movement, and otherwise has a counter-attack from a block.

A recent discussion on the topic had Systema (or similar “military” fighting style), Pentjak Silat and Kendo as strong options. Any input on their general “character” would be great, and double plus bonus points if you have suggestions of concrete move lists / mechanics.

Binky · 2014-02-26T12:45:43.000Z

I practised Silat for a while, so I can help out a bit on that. Silat is about staying low/presenting a small target/moving fast whilst low (due to defending against invaders in tall grasses/crops), so a dodging buff would make sense. Silat also uses mostly large flat bladed weapons or fine daggers which are used to hack off or stab opponents, but none which would be common in New England. Even in the most kitted out training halls they wouldn’t have the proper equipment as you couldn’t really train with the real weapons (being far too sharp/basically used for hacking peoples legs/heads off). Most of the training we did was just general martial arts stick fighting, as there was no real point in learning the true Silat moves (which was why I moved on to a different martial art)

Most of it is quite specific (take the Kujang for instance) and has to be extremely well balanced, so couldn’t be easily substituted. The stick/staff weapons (like all martial arts uses) aren’t given much priority, so I doubt anyone would pick silat for them.

Systema/military fighting styles are a bit needless really, as they use any and all techniques to disable an opponent and don’t have proper ‘forms’. As in, I don’t see how you could implement them in anyway that wasn’t just that you were better at fighting.

Good luck with the expansion!

Sanarr · 2014-02-26T15:20:45.000Z

I’ve tried to make some suggestions about melee weapons in http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5275.0 , but idea seems to be halted back then. I’m glad that you are trying to implement it in your work. Thanks and wish you luck and determination to code it.

Soyweiser · 2014-02-26T17:02:37.000Z

Sanarr:

but idea seems to be halted back then.

Halted? You are free to work on it and give more suggestions, or code even. The response was pretty positive :).

Logrin · 2014-02-27T04:51:45.000Z

I think it would be neat to make fencing flat out -great- for fighting other armed opponents. Sure that doesn’t show up now but it is a stretch goal.

I mean it is straight up a style not based around any unarmed form at all, it’s just about killing other people holding swords.

HunterAlpha1 · 2014-02-27T04:57:43.000Z

[quote=“Logrin, post:5, topic:5215”]I think it would be neat to make fencing flat out -great- for fighting other armed opponents. Sure that doesn’t show up now but it is a stretch goal.

I mean it is straight up a style not based around any unarmed form at all, it’s just about killing other people holding swords.[/quote]Or, more specifically, living, breathing people who feel pain and can die rather quickly from rapid blood loss, vs. undead zombies who feel no pain and can continue to function perfectly fine without blood.

Logrin · 2014-02-27T05:08:23.000Z

A trained fencer could probably destroy a slow shambling person’s brain through their eye sockets, let alone all the other soft targets a real rapier could ruin. Zombies still need tendons!

EDIT***

Although that does give me an idea ((Thanks Hunter!)) what about adding attacks that quickly bleed out living targets?

OvenBaker · 2014-02-27T06:05:08.000Z

Cutting weapons already have a chance to cause bleeding (at least to the player… I’m not sure monsters process bleed in the same way, will check). Could add a flag to a technique that increases that bleed chance for nasty aimed cuts to arteries.

AerialK7 · 2014-02-27T06:30:01.000Z

Binky:

I practised Silat for a while, so I can help out a bit on that. Silat is about staying low/presenting a small target/moving fast whilst low (due to defending against invaders in tall grasses/crops), so a dodging buff would make sense. Silat also uses mostly large flat bladed weapons or fine daggers which are used to hack off or stab opponents, but none which would be common in New England. Even in the most kitted out training halls they wouldn’t have the proper equipment as you couldn’t really train with the real weapons (being far too sharp/basically used for hacking peoples legs/heads off). Most of the training we did was just general martial arts stick fighting, as there was no real point in learning the true Silat moves (which was why I moved on to a different martial art)

Wouldnt something like a machete do just fine? Though…Itd probably be too heavy. Also; dont like the heads of the dojo have real weapons? I know my horticulture teacher who does kendo (hes also a blackbelt in aikido and teaches it) has like a sword collection he does like…The displays. Im unsure what to call them. Where like, youll do a whole set of moves etc (not at anyone…just at the air, or a training dummy)

OvenBaker · 2014-02-27T08:26:34.000Z

kata

John_Candlebury · 2014-02-27T08:32:06.000Z

OvenBaker:

gun kata

There fixed.

As a mod of course.

HunterAlpha1 · 2014-02-27T18:30:06.000Z

[quote=“Logrin, post:7, topic:5215”]A trained fencer could probably destroy a slow shambling person’s brain through their eye sockets, let alone all the other soft targets a real rapier could ruin. Zombies still need tendons!

EDIT***

Although that does give me an idea ((Thanks Hunter!)) what about adding attacks that quickly bleed out living targets?[/quote]Read the lore. In CDDA you can’t kill a zombie just by stabbing it in the brain, you have to do massive damage throughout the body.

GrizzlyAdamz · 2014-02-27T18:45:32.000Z

Shh, you’ll take away our headshots & crits!

Logrin · 2014-02-27T19:15:27.000Z

[b]Shh, you'll take away our headshots & crits![/b]

^ This. Despite what the lore says at the end of the day you can still handily dispatch CDDA Zombies in the actual game with little more than a glass shiv or karate chops.

KA101 · 2014-02-27T19:44:49.000Z

[quote=“Logrin, post:14, topic:5215”]

Shh, you’ll take away our headshots & crits!

^
This. Despite what the lore says at the end of the day you can still handily dispatch CDDA Zombies in the actual game with little more than a glass shiv or karate chops.[/quote]

Put 'em on the ground, yeah. But to make sure they don’t get back up?

John_Candlebury · 2014-02-27T21:45:02.000Z

[quote=“Logrin, post:14, topic:5215”]

Shh, you’ll take away our headshots & crits!

^
This. Despite what the lore says at the end of the day you can still handily dispatch CDDA Zombies in the actual game with little more than a glass shiv or karate chops.[/quote]

Yeah if the game actually obeyed the lore our zmbies should be more or less like necromorphs and you should only be able to put them down with dismemberment, but that would make bullets and bashing things useless, so I am fine with the game following standard zombie rules.

i2amroy · 2014-02-27T21:56:35.000Z

They wouldn’t be that difficult to put down, they would just be that difficult to put down permanently. The lore as-is states that since the same systems are used as when the creature was alive enough damage to those systems will take the zombie down for a while as is reboots.

John_Candlebury · 2014-02-27T22:03:26.000Z

i2amroy:

They wouldn’t be that difficult to put down, they would just be that difficult to put down permanently. The lore as-is states that since the same systems are used as when the creature was alive enough damage to those systems will take the zombie down for a while as is reboots.

Ohh uhh, I have to re-read some lore posts then.

So then they are spposed to work as “standard” zombies when it comes to putting them down, I always thought the head shot thing was an oversight no one bothered to fix.

Logrin · 2014-02-28T14:03:23.000Z

One caveat I would add is, I would hate for decidedly awesome weapons like war hammers, zweihanders or battle axes to suddenly become ‘second fiddle’ or worse from a simple lack of associated fighting style being added to the game. Nor do I think every obscure fighting style need be added.

If/when Kendo makes its way in I hope it doesn’t inject eastern style swords with too much moreKatanas Are Just Better than they already have. ((Honestly I think they should be marginally yet noticeably worse than their western counterparts–it might just bug me as much as solar panels do Ekarus))

To that end I might suggest a blanket “Western Historical Arms” skill fit for a renaissance fair actor or the guys that joust each other at Medieval Times. On the whole it wouldn’t be as focused as fencing or kendo–but it would be compatible with pretty much any and all old timey melee weapons.

PoeSalesman · 2014-02-28T16:34:09.000Z

From what I remember we do have a few surviving books dealing with western martial arts and weapon fighting, so it’s not a stretch at all for their to be a style for them too.