Did the gameplay become more tedious lately?

Game Talk The Bunker
81
-snip-

I didn’t mean that this is flawed in any way, for the most part. Only that keeping everything during that 2ndish to end to mem CBM is a difficult balancing act. Nothing wrong with that, that is what makes the game. But there is a certain tedium to it, a good tedium but tedium none the less. But you add any bad tedium, and suddenly its a lot less fun. Bit of a razors edge. When digressing back to being unable to craft higher level things to continue progressing is so well balanced, any negative changes to the game, such as a magazine bug, are felt very strongly, creating a more pronounced feeling of tedium then would normally be the case for a stand alone flaw or tedium that needed fixing.

Unlike a lot of games, you have to grind just to maintain. Which is awesome, if tedious.

82

Speak for yourself. I play the broken cyborg start, and I get out well over half the time, and once I’m out, I almost never die (once in a while, I do something stupid or get screwed by some change in game mechanics). Generally, I play that one a while, then download the next experimental and start over. I generally have all the broken bionics and most of the basic good ones installed by then, and I more or less follow the progression he’s talking about. Generally, the only skills I don’t have at 5+ are the combat ones I don’t use and maybe construction if I haven’t found the right book (grinding that one from 4 to 5 is REALLY annoying).

83

I am playing the last week with magazines, it adds nothing other then more items. And to my opinion this game doesn’t need more items.

Also needing 3 items instead of 2 for a working gun while Item Drop / Loot is kinda random can really screw up balance I think but that is for the programmers to work out.

I read magazines are here to make it harder to get a working gun, I feel to accomplish that this is the wrong route.

The game was always tedious from the start, due how the interface works how to deal with insane amount of items or the ridicules possibility’s what you can craft. Or just how daily life works in Cata ( Eat Drink Sleep)
This is both the charm and the weak spot of DDA Cataclysm.

Did it become more tedious? The "new"interface combated it pretty successful I have to say and I wish our programmers put more effort on that then just adding items for more “realism” with most likely only add more tedious “game play”

If it is truly in the sake of realism please look first at the excising mechanics like perform difficult crafting tasks in minus 20C while you been beat up so badly that a rabbit can kill you. This is the main reason why veteran players almost never die in this game.

Example : I go into town clear plenty Zeds, Zeds are wearing me slowly down due Pain Wounds and damaged Gear, I hide in a room or a corner to fix my wounds and gear in less then 1 hour game time and I am as good as new.Way to arcady to my taste in a game that is focused on survival.

84

From what I can tell, magazines are there mostly to make reloads “make sense”. As in, reloading in combat, but not until your ammo runs out, only until your magazines do.
Also, they make makeshift guns more sensible - makeshift guns don’t need magazines, non-makeshift guns may require a makeshift magazine for a while.
As a positive side effect, magazine changes will also make it easier to implement guns with multiple ammo types or even multiple ammo types at once (compressed air+nails).

It makes sense in combat. Outside that it is an annoyance, but it becomes much more minor if you wield it before reloading.

85

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:84, topic:11418”]From what I can tell, magazines are there mostly to make reloads “make sense”. As in, reloading in combat, but not until your ammo runs out, only until your magazines do.
Also, they make makeshift guns more sensible - makeshift guns don’t need magazines, non-makeshift guns may require a makeshift magazine for a while.
As a positive side effect, magazine changes will also make it easier to implement guns with multiple ammo types or even multiple ammo types at once (compressed air+nails).[/quote]

I am not a huge gun player in Cata so maybe I don’t get it but before magazine where in place the magazine where simulated right? I mean a gun could not hold any amount of bullets without a magazine.

If so then you still have to reload at the same time ( shoot the same amount of bullets ) with or without mags.The only difference i can come up with is that with a magazine it isn’t that easy ( takes more in-game time ) to reload after each shot fired as I tended to do when wielding a gun in Cata.

Using different ammo with the same gun is possible without magazines only the mechanic is different. Less tedious I say :slight_smile:

I don’t see much gain adding magazines but to be fair it isn’t finished yet.

86

If guns that needed magazines CAME with a magazine a large majority of the time (as they should), and if you could treat a gun with a magazine as if it had an internal magazine (that is, the reload command would automatically remove the magazine, put a bullet or many bullets in it, and put it back), the magazines would be almost exclusively a good thing - you could “reload” in advance as many times as extra magazines you were carrying, but you wouldn’t be making guns so much harder to use as it does now.

Hopefully, when it’s done, it will be something like that. Until then, patience is required. Also, you can debug yourself a magazine for any gun you find, then, if you really want to balance it out, throw away the first spare magazine for that gun that you find.

87

Last time I tested, both of those features were in.
Something along the lines of 60% of guns now spawn with magazines (depends on item group - “action” ones spawn more, storage ones spawn less).
The “load magazine in gun” thing was working last time I tested.

88

Agree but IMO this has only been done in a few places and mostly recently.

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:78, topic:11418”]Any examples?
So far most of the “tedious” changes were either with gameplay in mind or just unfinished (magazine ones).
For example, the repair and item damage changes - those improve realism, but also make item damage meaningful.[/quote]

The repair thing was jarring at first due to it being a change but I ultimately think it streamlines repairing (and time/mats being a part of repairing are no big deal). For ex, I much prefer hitting the repeat til done thing vs going thru the keystrokes to try to repair something over and over 20x that existed before it. But, first time the repair popup appeared I was like, wtf is this.

The clip/magazine thing I find tedious because I don’t think selectively applying realism here gains anything (and so many things in the game are not realistic and are streamlined to make for a good game - like building superfortress vehicles with a wrench and duct tape). I also think many elements in the game are abstracted, like melee, which makes the game enjoyable to play, and the whole clip thing just doesn’t fit the bulk of the gameplay. I’ve already stated this to death.

The worn arrow thing I find equally tedious because having an extra popup for almost every arrow firing is brutal (I usually have auto collect on for arrows if I’m doing archery so I get spammed to death and simply quit using a bow due to this - I’m down to only using melee and shotguns these days since the clip thing is a nuisance too).

I’m not a big fan of some of the “balance changes” that have been done, like nerfing the everloving bejesus out of katanas and similar weapon availability. To me one of the great things about this game is the multitude of options, configurability, and the mods you can mix in to customize the experience to your liking, and changes like this to me take away options and force gameplay. I personally don’t find running around chopping up zombies with a katana any less realistic than zombies existing at all - and if that’s how I enjoy playing what’s wrong with that - others can elect to NOT do that or to use mods/options to get rid of it. So be it - fire axe or machete to the rescue if RNG shines on me - I want a cutting weapon, damn it! Finding such a weapon was never a given before but not it’s pretty much a waste of time to even try since the odds are kind of like the odds of winning the lotto.

Similarly in my most recent game rivtech weapons have been so uncommon I thought they were removed - but I was finding ammo (also seems much more uncommon). I don’t remember where but I swore I read that this game takes place in the future (later than now) so to me it’s not unreasonable to have some futuristic weapons. I’m finding power armor more than rivtech guns now though. I would think in the future there might e some guns more advanced than WWII castoffs. I actually never screw with guns that much but I always collect the rivtech stuff since it’s all kind of spiffy. Or I did. Again, there’s a mod to remove these for those that don’t want them so either I’m having really horrific RNG unlike anything before or they were tweaked.

Beyond stuff like that, I adore the game and I absolutely do not consider the “build up” parts of the game to be tedious at all. Quite the opposite, the starting from nothing, building up your clothes/capacity stuff, gathering mats and building vehicles, finding that first safe house/base, and all of the “progression” to me are the best parts of the game.

I also applaud those that work on this game - it’s always a pleasure to start a new run and bump into new content or new stuff and it seems like every time I start a new run on the latest experimental there’s new stuff. It’s pretty crazy. Sorry that I don’t like a few recent bits but overall - much love and respect for the amazing work.

89

More about tedious (I take guns as example now but it hold true to all other category’s )

What game play does it add to have 100+ different guns while Gun Game Play is very basic ( shallow)?

A better way would be to limit gun diversity to 3 to 5 different guns in each category. Where each gun have his own niche.

A good example where different versions of the same item it is done correct is socks versus woolen socks. If my English was better I could explain this better but I thing most will understand the point I try to make.

To add only for reasons to adding stuff makes the game more tedious as a player have to compare / collect /store all those items that not even are that different from each other at the first place.

90

Generic Gun Mods does exactly that.
It spews a bunch of errors on load right now, but the fact that no one is complaining means that it wasn’t too popular.

The arrow thing is being looked into. We may have a solution soon. There is a chance that one of the PRs I’m going to test in a moment will fix it.

91

I noticed there are a lot of things that could use a set ____ to default _____ kind of option in the menu or something. There are enough things like this that it could even become its own in-game menu, like the actions menu or the unarmed style menu. Not something you have to constantly open, but when you do it saves you about 50 times having to mess with a menu in the next day or so, and then keeps being useful.

Some examples off the top of my head:

Auto-place auto-pickup |item| in |place| (press + to add secondary location)

^ this one would probably be a auto-pickup manager sub-menu or something. There are other ways it can be done obviously, but for best effect I think of it working like selecting which container you want to put a liquid in, but with solid objects. Once granular/segregated storage is implemented this could be tweaked to involve that as well. Yeah I know, I am coming up with headache after headache of coding mess for people to deal with, but final result this is the best I came up with on the spot. I see this being Especially useful for archery/ perhaps ONLY used for quivers/ ammo pouches, at least at first.

auto funnel management option. If option is turned on passing by a funnel currently funneling into a full container has @ drop it on another container, but not pickup the full one. That could be annoying.

if you run out of bat/fuel etc… on a device while useing it, you get a prompt to refill it. <less sure about this one. Definately needs to be toggle-able.

target focus centered/edge. Same as item focus option, just with targeted creatures. (is this one in there already? I thought it was but I didn’t see it)

auto-weapon swapping management. Set default places for items to go when switching between weapons. Should be set for the individual weapons as well as have a blanket option for items not specified. This way when the pistol is pulled from the holster, then switched to the katana or whatever the pistol auto-drops onto the ground/ into holster etc… without having to do a two/three choice menu EVERY time.

92

Generic Gun Mods does exactly that.
It spews a bunch of errors on load right now, but the fact that no one is complaining means that it wasn’t too popular.[/quote]

I am aware of that mod and I used it for a while till I seen on the forum there are problems with it but I feel you don’t get the point I try to make.

I toke guns only as a example and you did not answer the real question I asked : What game play does it add? Why is Cata a better game with 1000 guns then Cata with 10 guns? Again I speak now about guns but this is true for all items.

Each Item should have clear positives and /or negatives when you hold it against its sister Item and if it doesn’t do that it should not be in a game as it only cause the player filter thru it with make the game more tedious.

I understand variety and flavor but I feel that way to much items are just added because they are “cool”.

EDIT

Last day I modified my car that include replacing all my storage space after 6 months+ in-game time playing.
It toke me 2 playing sessions to replace / sort and read the descriptions for all those items, it almost made me quit the game. Now we adding magazines and probably soon more ammo too so yea… even more stuff to skim thru. I am not against magazines or any other new item as long as it adds game play or being truly different from its sister item.

Sometime less is more.
Game play should all ways trump realism.

To be clear:
I have much respect of what the defs done and doing with this game even my last 2 posts are a bit negative.

93

The excess IS the fun. Every 2 bit game has a set of 10 standardized guns that everyone has seen time and time again. Where is the fun in cata doing THE SAME THING. Cata is so awesome BECAUSE I can grab an entire armory, build a mobile base that can carry it, and then switch out weapons as I run out. I don’t just “have guns to shoot them with” I have a way to keep a plethora of weapons that if I want, I can keep with me, stratagize around and find ways to deal with incompatible ammo, and limited ammo with specific gun builds.

Food is another one some might consider to be like this. The crafting menu deal with the clutter of a MASSIVE food index of possible culinary creations. There are choices of possible foods at every crafting skill level, and with various other skills tied in. Some foods get caught between all the choices and become obsolete, though do to all the possible ingredients, this is rare in that, usually if nothing else a recipe allows for a use of an ingredient that others do not. How cool is it that your character can go find an exotic cookbook in some random strangers home, kill a couple zeds on the way out, go home, and try some klumphumum recipie or something because, Oh cool I finally have something that lets me combine lizard eggs, acorn flour, vinegar, and tanbark into a good tasting meal.

How much better is that then eating the same generic 6 foods. EVERY day. The fun from RPG type games mostly derives from the balancing choices that are made along the journey. Should I go with axe skill, or sword skill? Should I use this weapon that has +2 lifesteal, or this one that has +10 attack… the + attack will mean a kill in less hits, but the lifesteal will keep me going longer down this adventure before I need to turn around and sell/restock on supplies. Not in a number crunching algebraic kind of way (for most of us) but in a trail and error, hmm well THIS way worked THAT well… how much better do I do if I do it THIS way instead? The discovery of how the game works, and what works in what situations best is very much a core concept for cata. That is WHY it is such a great game.

Check this out:
Joy of Discovery

94

[quote=“Litppunk, post:93, topic:11418”]Check this out:
Joy of Discovery[/quote]

I did and he makes clear that the excitement of finding a new item/discovery’s comes with new possibilities. And that is exactly my point I try to make, a lot of items don’t give new possibility’s, they are not even noticeable different other then the name tag.

There are now about 75 pistols in the game, only a very few of them do something noticeable different. So when I need to pick a pistol I only check what ammo I have the most and that’s the pistol I am using. This make all other 74 pistols obsolete till I run out of ammo for the pistol I am using.

If finding “new” stuff is exciting even when the only true difference is the name tag we could add color to the items too. Now you have 1500 different pistols, how exiting is that?

Each item have to be found looked at picked up and possibly carried, If to much items are not worth that it collides with game play in my opinion and make the game more tedious / drag while serving to little.

95

Fair enough. But I was referring more to the discovery of mechanics. Though to a point the same argument could be made there. Except, when you have all these various weapons, you have to make a decision on how you are going to proceed. Will you, build a giant death mobile so you can keep all the relevant ones? Or had pick the ones that YOU want and grumble if RNG gives you the ammo for the ones you DIDN’T get. Unlike most games, hording is a very real strategy for CDDA, not just a time consuming practice that prevents further well paced progress into the game. In most RPG type games, you just grab whatever has the best stats and sell the rest. In Cata, you might want to stash those old items, for other play throughs, or in case your base gets overrun by a massive horde, and you no longer have access to the main stash. The wide variety, really does give it more depth. Granted, most of the time the same old this has better stats chunk that one, still happens, but the over abundance of types is not a hindrance to game play. And gives it a little more flavor.

Elder scrolls games (skyrim, Oblivion) tend to have a fair amount of total junk items in the back ground. Skulls, emty scrolls etc. That add atmosphere, and sometimes an obnoxious side quest to find that one thing you’ve seen a million times and now can’t find…

Point being that having to find a balance to what you keep and what you don’t, works for CDDA. If you limited the weapons down to 20 generic guns or so, gameplay wouldn’t quite match the lore, and the game would feel more bare, instead of being the “loot abundant, but just try and get to it” world that we all love.

96

Funnily enough, you’re both right (Litppunk and Submarine) :smiley:
There’s a certain joy of discovering a new item and wondering what it does (if anything at all) and a certain jading finding the 100th iteration of an already owned item.

This very much, i have a shit ton of those lying around, to the point where i don’t even check the stats on them. On the other hand, i am really excited when i find a Rivtech gun, because it’s noticeably better/different. The rest, they are just noise.
Take for example the CBMs, the more the merrier, because every one does something that the other doesn’t. As opposed to that , food. I rarely bother to cook anything but the fastest most filling and less time-consuming type of food. Because all the variety serves no purpose except to add some flavor to the game, flavor quickly lost after a few play-throughs just because they serve no other purpose. Not even grinding the cooking skill, because books. Hell, if someone adds 20 new food recipes, there’s a very strong chance i won’t notice any of them, same for any new gun or clothing article. Well, maybe if it’s the Fatman from Fallout, i might notice that :D. Otherwise, i’m like “oh, a (insert random letters and numbers here) weapon, do i have ammo, yes/no”

Speaking of books, i am playing for the n-th time Morrowind. Why don’t we take a hint from this wonderful cluttered game, and instead of making 10 different wooden spoons and 15 9mm pistols, let’s create books with game-related content. With fun-fic content, like the survivor notes and the flyers, things that add real flavor to the world.

On the other hand, new monsters, those are never enough as long as they bring some (even minor) element of surprise, so yeah, idk. Lost my train of thoughts :stuck_out_tongue:

97

To many items? I certainly have no problem seeing which item i ll need and which can be left lieing where i found it.
Theres already a huge variety of different items. Lots of them are similiar to each other but there is still a lot of content itemwise.
Sure there could be more but i disagree with the statement that the ammount of items is a problem
If the item does exist and has a reason to be found where you find it then by all means have that item ingame… Even if you can t do something different with it when compared to another item you already found befor. Even if its entirely useles.

98

The idea here is that reloading the whole magazine for these guns will take too long and get you killed, so you can reload just one and then fire it relatively quickly. Now that you mention it though, we could check if you reload a RELOAD_ONE gun twice in a row and ask if you want to reload it fully. The other option is a “reload all” action, which seems like it’d be a feature hardly anyone would know about or use.

99

I think those of you who are complaining about the diversity of loot are all looking at this from the wrong perspective. Diverse loot is not the problem so much as abundant loot. (The latter is quite easily fixed too, just turn down the item spawn!)

The idea is, you shouldn’t be seeing all 75 pistols in one particular run. You shouldn’t be seeing 75 iterations of anything in one particular run, loot should be rare enough that the joy of discovery lies, not in finding the nth iteration of a pistol, but finding a pistol period. Turn down the item spawn and feel the utter elation of finding a second pistol that you can keep loaded.

Also keep in mind that it is a roleplaying game. Min maxing is all well and good if you are “gaming” but if you’re roleplaying, the different food matters, the different clothes matters, the different pistols matter.

One thing that would definitely help is to give each character a set of randomly generated preferences (for clothing, food, etc.) which, if fulfilled, gives a bonus to the happiness (or gives a penalty depending on the type of preference). This would not be terribly hard to code (since I imagine most of the existing random generation functions could carry over toward this task) and (if happiness is still as important as it used to be) would suddenly make all the seemingly extraneous details important and interesting. If fact this is already somewhat implemented with stuff like junk-food intolerance and stylish etc. but it could go much further.

So sure, you can be the power-armor-wearing, rivtech-weapon-toting, granola-eating, master-of-all, juggernaut, but sometimes its more interesting to be the guy who likes wearing t-shirts and jeans and risks tooth and nail for pancakes.

100

I like this because if I’m getting my face chewed off by a zombie who’s almost dead, I don’t need a full pipe of ammo, just one shot (hopefully).