Crazy idea about adding various USA states

[Wasylus]

I know, I know, and you’re right. However I didn’t mean any disrespect to anyone. If I sounded to aggressive for someone’s tastes or something like that then it wasn’t by design, believe me. My question and concern were genuine and I’m not demanding or expecting anything - except to be told how things are and what the plans for the future are. And Kevin answered that question. I’m perfectly happy with the answer he gave me.

[TheZoneWizard]

Not sure how it makes sense to have a static start map. You would just memorize all the hot spots and garner everything from them. The beginning would be repetitive and bland. Negating the players sense of unease and uncertainty. If you begin each time in a static map, you already know what will happen to an extent.

What is the purpose of borking the game in this way? Learning about the game? After you understand the game in this way, the player would just farm the crap they need and head out to random stuff and only THEN would the game feel like it progresses. Which would seriously suck @$$!

[Zhilkin]

Who said the map or start would be static?

You start in random location in MA chosen from 1337 overmaps (which is two or three orders of magnitude larger than average game).

Major overmap geography would be mostly static (land, forests, swamps, rivers, lakes, ocean, roads, railroads, building type areas), but buildings would be placed randomly, so if you even if you would start game on same overmap several times - you will get different map. Various overmap specials (like underground labs) would be placed in random places, so it won’t be possible to “go to NCR Bazaar to steal Bozar on Level 1”.

Loot and monster generation would also stay random.

[TheZoneWizard]

Short term (once its implemented, its an unusable prototype right now), there would be character generation options to spawn somewhere in Mass instead of the current pseudo- new england area.

Thats the only part of it thats really concrete right now.

Once you leave the bounds of Mass it would go back to procedural generation.

Kevin Said a little up in this thread.
"Short term (once its implemented, its an unusable prototype right now), there would be character generation options to spawn somewhere in Mass instead of the current pseudo- new england area.

Thats the only part of it thats really concrete right now.

Once you leave the bounds of Mass it would go back to procedural generation."

The last part implies static. As in “going back to procedural”.

[Mantar]

The last part implies static

Not really. That map up there only has terrain types, it doesn’t cover the exact contents, those will still have to be procedurally generated unless you want to hand fill all 1337 of those tiles.
“Going back to procedural” means procedural generation of the overmap, rather than using the premade overmap.

[TheZoneWizard]

This makes sense to you why? A random map would be a random map. Giving it a set outline of a real place and randomly filling it with stuff that isn’t there, but the state border is feels really strange with that way of thinking. Plus I know the state well enough to not want this =/

[kevin.granade]

There are several layers of procedural generation, this only specifies the topmost layer, which is the shape and placement of roads, city blocks, coastlines etc.
If you look at the web tool, you’re literally seeing everything it specifies, “theres a road here”, “theres a house here” etc

As @ZhilkinSerg pointed out, contents and layouts of houses will still be random, monster placement will be random, loot will be random. Knowing what towns are nearby:

1. Should be easy to find out anyway.
2. Doesn’t tell you much about loot and danger.

The state border is going to be weird, but only to the extent that everywhere in the game is weird right now.

[Hirmuolio]

Finland would also have some detailed data if you want to look at importing other countries https://kartta.paikkatietoikkuna.fi/?lang=en

I think basing the overmap on real map is good. Especially large formations like roads and rivers are quite poor in the random generated overmap. The human scale details would still be randomly generated so all the good parts would remain as they are.

[dpwb]

I can imagine in the future, as an option, to import your own GIS data, and an in-game tool will convert it.
Giving people the facility to play a map based on their own area, where gaps exist, random generation will fill in.
No other game out there does anything similar afaik, exciting stuff.

[TheZoneWizard]

Still curious as the reason why this means more to you than random…ya know, being random?

Every game setting the same map frame work turn to crap. DayZ is a great example. People just stop playing because they know exactly where to go. Even with random filler, they already know it is wrote before they turn it on.

I see it like this. I have to do X things and go to X places that I’ll be forced to play through and only after I leave this ridiculous box will the game shine for being random. If every game I know I’m stuck in the same box(random items don’t make this better), nobody will want to play it because it is a big ugly hurdle before the fun begins.

Most big games do this and then people stop playing them because they stop being random.

[Hirmuolio]

I see it like this. I have to do X things and go to X places that I’ll be forced to play through

It seems like only the overmap would be based on the real data. You would know that there is a town of this size here but what buildings are in it is still randomly generated.

And if a whole country is used for the map and the starting position is in a random point in that country then you would be completely lost in a real world map as well as you would be in a randomly generated map.

Kevin also said “or importing areas in a lower resolution, such as y importing just the highway system and city locations rather than all if the detailed land use data.” which would preserve even more of the random generation.

[TheZoneWizard]

My main concern is roads and forests and any other static locale. Not caring much about it being real. I see a game that is great as is being completely random. I have NO idea where I can go outside the start map where my character would know a few things/locations. Beyond that I don’t want to memorize a static ANYTHING. This totally blows the primary appeal of the game. We don’t know if one direction will be better than any other. But if I know, even the basic trappings of a map. I have foresight and will go there or be forced to ignore this until I make the border and once again, the game fun happens AFTER I escape a crap area.

Repetition is the death of the game. Static parts = bad. As things are now, we may have some idea of a few buildings. But with more and more being added. It becomes a total mystery as to what will happen.

[Hirmuolio]

I don’t think you would be able to memorize much of the static overmap.

Look at the scale (the ingame map uses non square font so it is a bit squeezed)

A single neighbourhood in some village in middle of nowhere would be bigger than the “cities” in the game now.

There will be plenty of room to get lost.

And if you want to make being lost even easier the overmap could be rotated by random ammount (perhaps tied to 90 degree angles) so you would have no idea where what is.

[TheZoneWizard]

So you are suggesting the streets and buildings will be different? Does Kevin agree?

I can memorize this in less than a few hours mate. My medical problems damage my short term memory and I would see this map and know exactly what would have all the hot spots for stuff.

If to assume this map would move around. Shift streets and rework every building location? Sure that would be alright. If not? A few hours tops, to commit it to memory. Just because items would be random doesn’t mean the map wouldn’t get stale. That is my point. If every map would be randomized and this tight? That would be nice.

Once again, DayZ comes to mind. You could move around for real days in one map. But nobody plays it much because it is static with random items.

[Zhilkin]

There are 1337 overmap tiles with 180x180 terrain tiles each. Terrain/building put to each of terrain tiles would be random each game.

[TheZoneWizard]

So you mean the buildings would be this tight as that map suggests, but change every new game? Streets too?

Kevin agrees? I mean I’d like his input. Maybe I misunderstand.

[Zhilkin]

Nothing is finalized yet and everything is about to change during implementation.

For the time being we have MA database compiled from GIS data and provided by @ralreegorganon. This database is set of cells where each cell has a number of parameters which can be utilized during mapgen. One of the parameters is land use code which define what buildings are allowed in this terrain tile. So what you see as light green tiles in the screenshot below are residential buildings, but you don’t know which of house mapgen will be used for each of the tiles (it would be random each game).

Transportation network (roads, subway, railroads) and geography (swamps, fields, forests, oceans, rivers, lakes) would be mostly the same, but buildings would not.

Loot would be random each game. Monsters would be random. Both respecting buildings.

Specials locations (hidden labs, etc) would be random.

[TheZoneWizard]

Yes…sucks =/

So we would get the same shlock every time as I suspected. How disheartening to end up with static design.

[kevin.granade]

Unless you go out of your way to figure out where you are when you spawn, you’re not going to know where in the state you are, it’s just going to be some random town (unless you spawn somewhere in Boston, in which case good luck dealing with the ~600,000 zombies). The only thing you really know is, “the coast and Boston are to the east”. And really, that kind of thing is a really sensible thing to know

If you think the current random generation is great, we have no plans to remove it, so you dont have to fight your way out of Massachusetts to get there, it’s just a starting option away.

If you insist on figuring out where you are and look it up on Google maps, yea you can find major buildings.

Re: randomizing roads, probably what will happen with that is when we have several blocks worth of uniform residential roads, we’ll overwrite the roads with procedurally generated ones

[TheZoneWizard]

Oh, well there you are then. I like you more now Kevin. I know, I, saying so makes your day lol

So last thing. Apart from a few major iconic buildings(as I infer), the cells won’t have the normal buildings in the same locations? The whole landscape shifts? Similar to things in Unreal World by what it seems like.