Classic Mode Update

[Binky]

I’m a big fan of classic mode, and I’d like to see it get more attention if possible as I think it has a lot of attraction potential for people who just want a ‘zombie RL game’.

The main problem with it is that the classic zombies become extremely easy to beat - you can get a crossbow and one shot everything, and you’ve pretty much won if you get an automatic weapon. I imagine this mode would have a harder difficulty curve, but only because it’s difficult to currently have much late game content with it. I have a few suggestions and I’d be happy to help implement and test them.

• Massively buff all classic zombies. This would be a straight buff in all areas (except speed), a doubling in hit points and giving them all the ‘hard to shoot’ flag (to emulate needing headshots).
• I would suggest that some (or maybe all) zombies could be given the grab attack.
• Reinstate Zombie dog spawns (have they been taken out?) and buff them slightly.
• Up the base spawn rate and lower item spawn rate by default. As those of you have been around know, I’m in favour of those things anyway, but I think this would balance things out more. A more selective run through of classic spawn items could be done to remove most automatic weapons (make them very rare) as well as adjust things slightly.

These are things I could do myself over the holidays - obviously this is a stop gap until better mechanics like wandering hordes come in - but I hope that it’d make it a bit more playable. Any other ideas? I am kind of limited to what I can do, but I’d be happy to give most things that don’t require implementing whole new mechanics a go.

[FunsizeNinja123]

Huh. I always thought that classic mode= easy mode.

+1, anyway.

[Binky]

[quote=“FunsizeNinja123, post:2, topic:4605”]Huh. I always thought that classic mode= easy mode.

+1, anyway.[/quote]

Thanks!

Yeah, I think it has become that really, which is a shame because all of the people (at least a good 10 or 15) I introduced to Cata were really looking for a sort of Walking Dead/Traditional Zombie RL/survival game and weren’t too interested by the supernatural elements, but then were put off by how quickly they managed to surpass everything in classic mode.

I’m sure new spawning models/roving hordes and NPCs will solve this problem much more elegantly, but as I’ve got a bit of time now I thought I could do some adjustments to make it at least a bit of a challenge.

[Inadequate]

I’m not sure if you should stick the ‘hard-to-shoot’ tag on literally every zombie, it makes ranged weapons pretty much pointless altogether.

Anyway, I’m not in favour of any quick hotfix solution to anything, and this seems less ‘classic mode update’ than ‘things Binky wants patch’. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with pushing that as a mod or suggesting it, but I think any major classic zombie update should be a bit more expansive in scope.

[FunsizeNinja123]

but I think any major classic zombie update should be a bit more expansive in scope.

Yeh, that’s true. I never really play on classic, so I can’t really give any ideas to it than what Binky did.

[Binky]

[quote=“Inadequate, post:4, topic:4605”]I’m not sure if you should stick the ‘hard-to-shoot’ tag on literally every zombie, it makes ranged weapons pretty much pointless altogether.

Anyway, I’m not in favour of any quick hotfix solution to anything, and this seems less ‘classic mode update’ than ‘things Binky wants patch’. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with pushing that as a mod or suggesting it, but I think any major classic zombie update should be a bit more expansive in scope.[/quote]

You’re right with not putting the ‘hard-to-shoot’ tag on everything, I’ve had a bit of a mess around and it doesn’t seem suitable. Perhaps decayed zombies would be acceptable ‘classic’ wise which could have that.

Of course my suggestion is going to be ‘things I want to patch’ - that’s why it’s my suggestion!! I’ve asked for other peoples suggestions, and I definitely will be open to other suggestions.

What I really don’t understand is the negative attitude towards shorter steps of progress. I’ve said that there definitely will be better ways around this, but looking at the speed other things are going those are going to be a long, long way off (no disrespect meant, I know things are going as fast as they can). This isn’t going to stop anyone working on bigger projects, and isn’t a hack to get something working, it’s just trying to get it to an enjoyable state through a bit of balancing.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Heh, I too started off playing classic- wound up moving to normal mode as I learned how things worked.

Yeah this seems like the kind of thing that would take one person with know-how and passion to knock out in a couple days. But it needs that one person with the know-how & passion.

In the meantime perhaps playing with hardcore/glassjaw could make it a big more challenging?

Btw your changes sound fine.

[Binky]

[quote=“GrizzlyAdamz, post:7, topic:4605”]Heh, I too started off playing classic- wound up moving to normal mode as I learned how things worked.

Yeah this seems like the kind of thing that would take one person with know-how and passion to knock out in a couple days. But it needs that one person with the know-how & passion.

In the meantime perhaps playing with hardcore/glassjaw could make it a big more challenging?

Btw your changes sound fine.[/quote]

Thanks!

The changes I’ve talked about are just moving a few numbers around so I can do those without much of a problem. I can do more and would be willing to (I have the passion and most of the know-how), but I realise how much people are against ‘personal additions’ (myself also) so I wanted to get a good consensus on ideas before going ahead with anything.

I guess it comes down to whether people want a ’ current classic mode with a few buffs to make it less lolz’ or a ‘hardcore realism mode’? Oddballz who did the original patch was moving further towards the second I feel (when I last talked to him anyway) but I don’t want to overstep if most people only want it a little bit buffed.

[dwarfkoala]

A “hardcore realism mode” sounds really awesome, actually.

If you have the passion and the know-how, I think that people will support this. I know that I switched from classic because it was too easy, myself.

[Binky]

[quote=“dwarfkoala, post:9, topic:4605”]A “hardcore realism mode” sounds really awesome, actually.

If you have the passion and the know-how, I think that people will support this. I know that I switched from classic because it was too easy, myself.[/quote]

Thanks for your support. Do you have any suggestions for a hardcore realism mode?

One idea was culling a lot of harmless wildlife (not getting rid of, but certainly toning down) and rebalancing food spawns to have more perishable stuff than un-perishables (so as to give an easier start which gets harder). I’d eventually like to tackle all the item spawn lists as well, but that’s a ton of work. I might just try to get rid of a few of the higher end weapons instead.

[deadmerits]

I support the hard core realism mode myself. I’d like to see more of a zombie survival simulator rather then a zombie “game”, if that makes any sense.

I’m glad classic is being looked at again anyways so I’m interested and following what happens with this.

[Binky]

Thanks deadmerits,
It makes total sense and I definitely agree - as I said to Dwarfkoala, any ideas you’ve got for how to achieve this would be greatly appreciated.

[whw4]

I wish Classic mode did not automatically get rid of the special/interesting buildings. That’s my main gripe, that you either have Classic zombies and virtually no where interesting to go, or have to run away from the kitchen-sink full of baddies in Regular mode and be able to check out labs and whatnot.

Even being able to toggle -some- of the special stuff would be neat. Like say I want Classic zombies and the Lovecraftesque stuff, but no triffids. That should be a thing.

[Binky]

[quote=“whw4, post:13, topic:4605”]I wish Classic mode did not automatically get rid of the special/interesting buildings. That’s my main gripe, that you either have Classic zombies and virtually no where interesting to go, or have to run away from the kitchen-sink full of baddies in Regular mode and be able to check out labs and whatnot.

Even being able to toggle -some- of the special stuff would be neat. Like say I want Classic zombies and the Lovecraftesque stuff, but no triffids. That should be a thing.[/quote]

I know that the end goal is to have it very customizable (especially in terms of which enemies you want and stuff), I’m sure that’s not too far off actually, and an worldgen option could probably be quite easily made.

I definitely agree with the lack of special buildings, I’ll try to put those back in somehow, as even without the sci-fi stuff within them it does feel a bit limited in the building department without all the additions.

[deadmerits]

I sorta have an idea involving the descriptive tags such as Fleeing Hostile and Tracking.
Mostly something like:

Docile/Wandering Tag- this would be for the zombies that haven’t seen or heard you. They would be easier to hit with ranged weapons because they’re not really moving around so they’re easier to hit.

Tracking Tag- I can’t think of anything better for the name but basically this is a zombie that has seen or heard you. I can’t think of anything special to put with this except maybe they can get other zombies to follow them unless they see another npc or you the player. That could cause hoards to form and come your direction.

Enraged Tag- This is for when the zombie is right near you, maybe a couple of squares, but only if you can be seen. Maybe an increase in speed and possibly harder to hit with ranged weapons, to simulate the difficulty of trying to get a precise shot at close range combined with a jerky fast zombie.

So just some quick thoughts that I guess have been swimming around a little while but definitely would flesh out zombies more as an actual creature and not just a punching bag.

Edit: Fixed a typo

[Inadequate]

They would be harder to hit with ranged weapons because they’re not really moving around so they’re easier to hit.

Huh?

Aside from that, I’m not sure whether the rest of it is a good idea or not, but at least it’s internally consistent.

[deadmerits]

Okay you caught me with a typo… no harder yes easier.
At first I was wondering how to better explain myself but fixing the typo should do.

[Binky]

Interesting one. Really what you’re saying is that they should get a speed boost and be harder to hit with ranged weapons up close, as well as being a bit more docile when further away??

I like that, however I think the ‘harder to hit with ranged weapons when next to player’ would be a good overall mechanic for CataDDA. Possibly start a separate thread for it?

I will definitely think about making them more docile at a longer range though, it’s quite easy to do (I think) with changing their sight parameters and it might be a good way of balancing things.

[deadmerits]

Other things I was thinking about were involving the lore. Should the classic zombie “virus” be a mystery? And what about bites, should they be “one bite and you’re hooked”? I can only imagine that working with a system that tracks progress, much like the memorial system, because getting a death sentence would basically end the game for traditional play.
And stealth seems to be important for that suspense feel if nothing else… there should be some surprises, pop up zombies from corpses as you approach or lurkers, that sort of thing.

Also should “our” zombies only crave human flesh or should they attempt to eat anything alive and moving?

I’m just thinking out loud as it were and trying to help stimulate conversation and brainstorming.

[Binky]

I’m not sure about changing anything lore wise, I don’t really want classic mode to break way from normal catadda so much that it becomes pretty much a separate game.

Although making bites more dangerous seems like a good idea, I worry that that would force players into playing a ranged character with high dodge skills.

Pop up zombies and the like are similarly a good idea for the main game in general, although I may work on that as a side project when I get time as I think that’d be a great addition!