Can you have both bionics and mutations?

Game Talk The Bunker
41

[quote=“Paquito, post:40, topic:5972”]This makes sense to me, balance wise. Bionics can malfunction due to damage. You’d want them to be repairable, but the process should be time-consuming enough where the damaged bionic is unusable for the rest of the fight you’re in.

Mutations, on the other hand, can’t “break”, and so are more durable if you’re lucky enough to achieve them.[/quote]

Also, bionics that fundamentally change how your body works should be life-threatening if they’re malfunctioning. Expanded Digestive System has huge benefits, but if it’s not working properly, your character may have trouble getting proper nutrition, or maybe vomits alot, until it’s repaired.

42

I rather see the addition of more difficult areas and monsters rather than rebalancing of the bionics/mutations myself.

I mean, once I’ve gotten to the late game, I want to have a really cool badass death machine, just give me something challenging to fight. I don’t want to have to think about all sorts of tedium that comes from dealing with fixing up my bionics and crap.

43

Yeah, GTA’s a liability. I don’t trust him, and I recommend that you not trust him either.

[quote=“i2amroy, post:34, topic:5972”][quote=“GlyphGryph, post:28, topic:5972”]I should note that there are plans to make certain mutations and certain bionics incompatible, if it hasn’t been done already.

Like the afore-mentioned Blaster Arm + Tentacle Arms.

There are also plans to add specific mutations that you can only get when paired with bionics, or that synergize in some way, last I checked.

I’m not super up-to-date on development anymore, of course.[/quote]
Pretty much. Current plans for mutation (AFAIK) are:

  1. Mutating with bionics present in the same body part might destroy, damage, or misalign them, possibly requiring their removal or just readjustment.
  2. There will be unique synergy mutations. For example mutating Retractable claws while you have the adamantine claws CBM could remove the CBM and replace it with an “Retractable adamantine claws” mutation, which would be much more powerful than either of it’s two component pieces.

As for the mutations vs. bionics debate, they are somewhat intended to fill different roles. Mutations generally are designed to fit the “high-risk, high-payout” type role. They offer your character immense amounts of power, but if you get too unlucky then they can have horrendous consequences. On the other hand bionics are intended to have large installation drawbacks (something that will only become more difficult when we rebalance the skill system), that require large amounts of time and work to achieve, but then offer little in way of drawbacks. Mutations are like the gambler, hoping to hit the jackpot and be set for life, while bionics are more like the 9-5 guy, who puts in large amounts of time to earn his paycheck but as a result has a guaranteed outcome.[/quote]

Bionic would go in second: replace your keratin claws with metal. The role-comparison is accurate. The interaction-thoughts are kinda-sorta the idea, but in Long Term. I’ve no immediate plans to implement 'em.

44

[quote=“Paquito, post:41, topic:5972”][quote=“Paquito, post:40, topic:5972”]This makes sense to me, balance wise. Bionics can malfunction due to damage. You’d want them to be repairable, but the process should be time-consuming enough where the damaged bionic is unusable for the rest of the fight you’re in.

Mutations, on the other hand, can’t “break”, and so are more durable if you’re lucky enough to achieve them.[/quote]

Also, bionics that fundamentally change how your body works should be life-threatening if they’re malfunctioning. Expanded Digestive System has huge benefits, but if it’s not working properly, your character may have trouble getting proper nutrition, or maybe vomits alot, until it’s repaired.[/quote]
I’m liking this idea of bionics needed maintenance and repair. Bionic limbs could slowly lose strength and dexterity as they become damaged, your fancy cyber eyes could glitch causing weird hallucinations and blind spots, that arm cannon could misfire and blow up if you don’t keep it at top condition…

45

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:28, topic:5972”]I should note that there are plans to make certain mutations and certain bionics incompatible, if it hasn’t been done already.

Like the afore-mentioned Blaster Arm + Tentacle Arms.

There are also plans to add specific mutations that you can only get when paired with bionics, or that synergize in some way, last I checked.

I’m not super up-to-date on development anymore, of course.[/quote]

See bitches? No trollin here.

46

Bionics don’t really need new systems to make them less appealing in order to balance things out, there just needs some work done to make mutations just as good as them. Besides, bionics already have a severe enough drawback; the energy requirements to use them.

47

I would also like to expand my point of how little mutations/bionics really matter by reminding everyone that any bonuses gained from mutations or bionics can be easily substituted by some of the stronger painkillers and Adderall. And in every one of my games, I have come across these far before mutagens/bionics.

Sure addiction is an argument, but I always pick addictive personality and it’s never been an issue for me either way. You might say that pills are temporary, but you don’t really need to have super stats 24/7. Bushes kill weaker zombies, and pills kill hulks.

Really, it’s all vanity and luxury. For example saprovore is considered an ace mutation in that you can eat rotten food. But is food really any kind of issue at that point in the game?

48

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:36, topic:5972”]Conceivably, we could also add indirect negatives to high-level bionics.

Possible ideas:
Some of the more “out there” overpowered bionics might be experimental and use technology based on the subprime plane. Much like teleporters, the cloaking and time dilation bionics might attract… “attention” when they are used, by having mechanics that work through interaction with the interdimensional fabric.

We could introduce enemies that could shut down or penalize bionic characters. For example: A power drain creature might give the player zero power while in a certain radius, effectively killing electric vehicles and making the fancy power-using tech in a bionic character little more than dead weight. This means bionics could end up having situational weaknesses.[/quote]

Me like! +1

To add onto this, perhaps NPCs can, when they happen properly, have different viewpoints on mutations/bionics? Some might be all “Humans only!” and attack any mutants/bionics on sight, others might be aggressively anti-mutant or bionic, attacking anyone against their ideology, etc. I’m going to make a new thread up in the suggestions board about this, actually.

49

50

That’s why it’s so OP.

51

I think the biggest issue with bionics is how many bionics don’t require power, or only require chunks of power to activate/deactivate. For example, what if the expanded digestive system, instead of simply reducing hunger gain, was an activated bionic that doubled nutrition gain while active? What if using the Integrated Toolset required 1 power when used in lieu of tools?

Basically, if bionics had more passive and active power drains and a few of the more overpowered power sources were nerfed (for example, removing clothing as a fuel source Internal Furnace), I think they would be in line with mutations, which are random but have no power drain.

52

[quote=“Grendus, post:51, topic:5972”]I think the biggest issue with bionics is how many bionics don’t require power, or only require chunks of power to activate/deactivate. For example, what if the expanded digestive system, instead of simply reducing hunger gain, was an activated bionic that doubled nutrition gain while active? What if using the Integrated Toolset required 1 power when used in lieu of tools?

Basically, if bionics had more passive and active power drains and a few of the more overpowered power sources were nerfed (for example, removing clothing as a fuel source Internal Furnace), I think they would be in line with mutations, which are random but have no power drain.[/quote]

And yet bionics already have the difficulty of installing 'em. Internal Furnace already doesn’t accept corpses; having it not accept clothing because people would use it gets Chintzy.

(Expanded Digestion gives more nutrition; Recycler prevents hunger; the latter might be neat to make powered but the former, not so much as it’s a total GI replacement.)

53

[quote=“Inquisitor Dust, post:44, topic:5972”][quote=“Paquito, post:41, topic:5972”][quote=“Paquito, post:40, topic:5972”]This makes sense to me, balance wise. Bionics can malfunction due to damage. You’d want them to be repairable, but the process should be time-consuming enough where the damaged bionic is unusable for the rest of the fight you’re in.

Mutations, on the other hand, can’t “break”, and so are more durable if you’re lucky enough to achieve them.[/quote]

Also, bionics that fundamentally change how your body works should be life-threatening if they’re malfunctioning. Expanded Digestive System has huge benefits, but if it’s not working properly, your character may have trouble getting proper nutrition, or maybe vomits alot, until it’s repaired.[/quote]
I’m liking this idea of bionics needed maintenance and repair. Bionic limbs could slowly lose strength and dexterity as they become damaged, your fancy cyber eyes could glitch causing weird hallucinations and blind spots, that arm cannon could misfire and blow up if you don’t keep it at top condition…[/quote]

Heh, coming up with effects for broken bionics is fun. When Cerebral Booster is malfunctioning, your intelligence is lowered. In severe cases, your character starts babbling incoherently and maybe starts hallucinating :slight_smile:

54

[quote=“KA101, post:52, topic:5972”][quote=“Grendus, post:51, topic:5972”]I think the biggest issue with bionics is how many bionics don’t require power, or only require chunks of power to activate/deactivate. For example, what if the expanded digestive system, instead of simply reducing hunger gain, was an activated bionic that doubled nutrition gain while active? What if using the Integrated Toolset required 1 power when used in lieu of tools?

Basically, if bionics had more passive and active power drains and a few of the more overpowered power sources were nerfed (for example, removing clothing as a fuel source Internal Furnace), I think they would be in line with mutations, which are random but have no power drain.[/quote]

And yet bionics already have the difficulty of installing 'em. Internal Furnace already doesn’t accept corpses; having it not accept clothing because people would use it gets Chintzy.

(Expanded Digestion gives more nutrition; Recycler prevents hunger; the latter might be neat to make powered but the former, not so much as it’s a total GI replacement.)[/quote]

As far as difficulty installing them, it’s no worse than cooking up mutagen with the recent changes. You need to get to 8 or 9 cooking to boil up some mutagen/purifier, but you can install bionics with 4 or so in mechanics, first aid, and electronics. Given that you need a ton of mutagen/purifier to guarantee a good mix of mutations, and you can boost your mood and take drugs to improve your bionic install chance (cocaine is a hellova drug), I still think Bionics are easier. Less overhead, and they’re pretty easy to get by butchering Shockers.

Internal Furnace still accepts wood, gasoline, charcoal, and probably a few other sources of energy that I’m not aware of. It’s not like it would be making it unusable (I can’t remember the last time I was more than 10 tiles from something that I could smash or chop down to get some logs or two by fours or heavy sticks), but it would make power something that was harder to scavenge in the heat of battle - gasoline is energy dense but required for gasoline engines, charcoal has a great power/volume ratio but requires prep work, scrap wood requires noisy smashing and lots of volume for storage but is extremely easy to get. Internal Furnace would still be the best power source CBM, but as is it basically makes any other active power source pointless. When you compare it to Ethanol Burner, which will saddle you with a serious alcohol addiction if you rely on it, or Joint Torsion Ratchet/Solar Panels which recharge very slowly, Internal Furnace is instant power on demand with no drawbacks.

Edit: An alternative would be making eating non-food items unpleasant. If eating tattered old pants or chugging gasoline came with a serious mood penalty, it would make it more of an energy source of last resort.

55

The best way to draw back the Internal Furnace is have it take time to burn the fuel.
It’d have a set tank size for fuel and different fuel have different burn rates, so in a pinch you can drink gasoline for some quick power but it takes a minute or so to burn.
If you have longer then you can eat wood and spend an hour or so to do the burn.

56

That would be fantastic, actually.

57

what if the internal furnace gave off heat while it burnt things?
So if you were exploring the labs and it was freezing as balls in there, you could chomp on the leftover clothes and such to give you a bit of fire in your belly

58

I assume whatever the internal furnace does would be done in the background while you do other stuff?

59

it could be like a normal fire where it just chugs along through the fuel and when it’s done gives you a message like ‘Your internal furnace Dings’ or something.