Can you have both bionics and mutations?

[Goombah]

My view:

Making Bionics and Mutations separate is a good idea. One or the other, and not both, allows the balance on each to be better in the end. If you have to consider both of them together, ultimately, neither will be result in being as cool as they potentially could be because you have to consider double the possible number of ramifications and combinations.

I’d prefer them to be separate so that they can all be cooler.

That’s just me speaking from a general design standpoint.

[Shadowchaser]

I might like to see point values used to determine how cybernetic you are versus how mutated you are, and have it so that you could have minor mutations and minor bionics but going too far one way starts limiting the other.

But that’s me liking both of them.

[darkmonkey07]

so either high bionics and no mutations
or high level mutations and no bionics
or low level both

[John_Candlebury]

Shame I am not the kind of persons who tell others that they are being trolled.

If I were I would probably be shouting: “YOU ARE GETTING TROLLED”. At the top of my lungs.

… Oh wait it looks like I am the kind of person who tells others that they are being trolled.

IN CASE YOU DIDNT GET IT:
YOU CAN STILL BE MUTATED AND USE BIONICS

[darkmonkey07]

In the current stable version you can, yes we know…
he was talking about in the experimental version

[John_Candlebury]

Sure whatever… keep getting trolled.

You guys are aware that you can download the experimental and actually check before making a whole fuss about it.

Nothing has changed when it comes to bionic/mutation compatibility.

[system]

And thus the friendly neighborhood troll was uncovered coughgtaguycoughcough.

[GlyphGryph]

I should note that there are plans to make certain mutations and certain bionics incompatible, if it hasn’t been done already.

Like the afore-mentioned Blaster Arm + Tentacle Arms.

There are also plans to add specific mutations that you can only get when paired with bionics, or that synergize in some way, last I checked.

I’m not super up-to-date on development anymore, of course.

[Terthna]

Oh thank goodness! Now, how do I block people on this forum so that I never have to listen to gtaguy’s bullcrap ever again?

[John_Candlebury]

I would advise against it, but you can do it through:

-your profile/modify profile/ edit ignore list.

And add the usernames of the persons you wish to ignore.

[vache]

Though the fact that everyone said “fuck mutations!” does highlight the problems of bionics not having any drawbacks once installed, while mutating requires a delicate balance of purifying and luck to get all positive outcomes. It might be worthwhile to give bionics more drawbacks, such as a slow passive power drain, perhaps based off of the number of bionics you have installed. If you can’t support the power drain, something bad happens (you get pain, your stats decrease, you become encumbered, your need for food/water/sleep increases, etc).

[eternalflame]

That sounds awfully like fast metabolism and high thirst traits/mutations. Even enhanced memory module becomes a noticeable power drain when you push all skills to level 7 or more.

I find that perhaps CBMs are spawned in too great numbers. Or perhaps they are too easy to install, though I suppose they are designed to be easy. I have a couple of ideas on how the latter could be addressed if it is really a problem. I will refine it somewhat while I wait for some NPC improvements before making a suggestion. CBM spawning should be easy to tone down with editing your world options.

[ChristopherWalken]

Imho if you want to nerf CBMs have them require several installations.
Some partially installed CBMs might still provide smaller bonuses, some might do nothing and some might even give you minor negatives (maybe a bad idea).

So for example if you installed the Leg Plating you’d get:
Leg Plating Stage 1 - The joints in your legs have been reinforced, giving you a minor bonus to X defense (eg. Tiny bonus to bashing defense)
Then if you installed again you’d get:
Leg Plating Stage 2 - Your leg joints have been reinforced and light superalloy plates have been installed (eg. Add some defense to cutting damage)
And lastly:
Leg Plating Stage 3 - Your legs are fully armoured, providing good defense against harm (Current bonus plus the tiny bit from bashing from stage 1)

Also have CBM installation weaken the player character exponentially with each CBM for a day or more, possibly give varying degrees of non-crippling pain.
One CBM would be a minor malus to stats, but two would be significant and three or more crippling.

Just a couple ideas.

[i2amroy]

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:28, topic:5972”]I should note that there are plans to make certain mutations and certain bionics incompatible, if it hasn’t been done already.

Like the afore-mentioned Blaster Arm + Tentacle Arms.

There are also plans to add specific mutations that you can only get when paired with bionics, or that synergize in some way, last I checked.

I’m not super up-to-date on development anymore, of course.[/quote]
Pretty much. Current plans for mutation (AFAIK) are:

1. Mutating with bionics present in the same body part might destroy, damage, or misalign them, possibly requiring their removal or just readjustment.
2. There will be unique synergy mutations. For example mutating Retractable claws while you have the adamantine claws CBM could remove the CBM and replace it with an “Retractable adamantine claws” mutation, which would be much more powerful than either of it’s two component pieces.

As for the mutations vs. bionics debate, they are somewhat intended to fill different roles. Mutations generally are designed to fit the “high-risk, high-payout” type role. They offer your character immense amounts of power, but if you get too unlucky then they can have horrendous consequences. On the other hand bionics are intended to have large installation drawbacks (something that will only become more difficult when we rebalance the skill system), that require large amounts of time and work to achieve, but then offer little in way of drawbacks. Mutations are like the gambler, hoping to hit the jackpot and be set for life, while bionics are more like the 9-5 guy, who puts in large amounts of time to earn his paycheck but as a result has a guaranteed outcome.

[vache]

…

That really isn’t much of a nerf though. The only trouble you experience is during installation, after that, no thought or care or maintenance is necessary.

The different payoffs of bionics vs mutation is one good point, but some of the bionics have incredibly powerful effects that don’t have a mutation analog. The cloaking bionic and time dilation are a couple that come to mind.

One thing that might be interesting is a CBM with unpredictable effects. Maybe you make your way to the bottom of a lab and find a prototype bionic in there that has a set of random effects when installed, sort of like an artifact (except actually useful). It could choose from a set of passive effects, an active effect, and a chance to have a side effect. An example might be a bionic with a passive ability to report when you come in contact with radiation, give +1 to all stats, and an active ability to increase your speed for 5% while active, at the cost of 1 PU/20 turns, with a side effect that reduces your dodge skill by 2 when active.

[GlyphGryph]

Conceivably, we could also add indirect negatives to high-level bionics.

Possible ideas:
Some of the more “out there” overpowered bionics might be experimental and use technology based on the subprime plane. Much like teleporters, the cloaking and time dilation bionics might attract… “attention” when they are used, by having mechanics that work through interaction with the interdimensional fabric.

We could introduce enemies that could shut down or penalize bionic characters. For example: A power drain creature might give the player zero power while in a certain radius, effectively killing electric vehicles and making the fancy power-using tech in a bionic character little more than dead weight. This means bionics could end up having situational weaknesses.

[Terthna]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:30, topic:5972”]I would advise against it, but you can do it through:

-your profile/modify profile/ edit ignore list.

And add the usernames of the persons you wish to ignore.[/quote]

Thanks; I just can’t stand trolls so I tend to set them to ignore whenever I see them. That said, I also tend to purge my ignore lists every so often, so he’ll have another chance in a few months.

[Funk]

What if bionics could suffer damage that need to be repaired?
Or shuts them down for a while due to getting shocked
It give you a up keep cost to running them.

Some bionics are built to take damage and cover lot of your body, i.e. plating or Hydraulic Muscles
there meant to take hard useage and so what if your alloy plating got damaged you only need some superalloy and a few tools to fix it.

Others aren’t so easy to fix, a Teleportation Unit that shorts out and teleports you randomly? guess what you need both amplifier and transponder circuits to fix it.

Removing a damaged bionics nets you some of there components an a burnt out bionic.

[FunsizeNinja123]

But guys, think about having multiple fusion blaster arms with tentacles!

[Paquito]

[quote=“Funk, post:38, topic:5972”]What if bionics could suffer damage that need to be repaired?
Or shuts them down for a while due to getting shocked
It give you a up keep cost to running them.[/quote]

This makes sense to me, balance wise. Bionics can malfunction due to damage. You’d want them to be repairable, but the process should be time-consuming enough where the damaged bionic is unusable for the rest of the fight you’re in.

Mutations, on the other hand, can’t “break”, and so are more durable if you’re lucky enough to achieve them.