(by design) Quiver Encumbrances does not "layer easily"

[Pandromidal]

0.B Stable
SDL
Windows 8.1

normally items that “layer easily” are better than those that don’t. It appears that the quiver and large quiver don’t layer easily like they claim in the description, but add the usual 0+0.5 rounded down kind of thing. On my current character with the cloths that I’m wearing I get no additional torso encumbrance from adding a trench coat, but if instead I put on a Large Quiver I get a plus one to the second number.

ACTUAL
long underwear + kevlar vest + duffle bag + trenchcoat => 3+0=3
long underwear + kevlar vest + duffle bag + large quiver => 3+1=4 <----- This number

EXPECTED
long underwear + kevlar vest + duffle bag + trenchcoat => 3+0=3
long underwear + kevlar vest + duffle bag + large quiver => 3+1=3 <----- should be

(full transparency the number I have are actually one larger because I have"inconveniently large" trait that I didn’t think is relevant. I can come up with a simpler test scenario if you are having trouble reproducing.)

I would test in development but last I checked archery is kind of broken (can’t shoot wooden arrow shaft at all and I don’t understand how to “wish” for items).

[KA101]

Yeah, you’re gonna need to test in experimental builds. Inability to shoot unfletched shafts is intentional as the lack of fletching makes them inaccurate/non-aerodynamic at range.

Wishing for items: Bind the debug menu to a key, press the key in-game, option 1 (the default) is items, the / key lets you filter for items that match, use enter to leave the string and select items.

[RADIALTHRONE1]

[quote=“KA101, post:2, topic:8947”]Yeah, you’re gonna need to test in experimental builds. Inability to shoot unfletched shafts is intentional as the lack of fletching makes them inaccurate/non-aerodynamic at range.

Wishing for items: Bind the debug menu to a key, press the key in-game, option 1 (the default) is items, the / key lets you filter for items that match, use enter to leave the string and select items.[/quote]

All hail the debug menu!

[Pandromidal]

I got the debug menu working and am working on further testing on the latest experimental build. I don’t see a way to wish for fitted clothing but nothing a little sewing can’t fix

[Pandromidal]

I updated the bug using one of the experimental builds.

0.B 251207a
SDL
Windows 8.1

ACTUAL

long underwear top (fits) + kevlar vest (fits) + backpack                 => 1+0=1
long underwear top (fits) + kevlar vest (fits) + backpack + quiver (fits) => 1+1=2    <----- This number

EXPECTED

long underwear top (fits) + kevlar vest (fits) + backpack                 => 1+0=1
long underwear top (fits) + kevlar vest (fits) + backpack + quiver (fits) => 1+0=1   <----- or this number

Long underwear and quiver both “layer easily” and the other two do not. My expectation is that this behavior would be correct it Quiver was not a “layer easily” item. Quiver even has explanation text that says “This small item won’t encumber you”. Strangely under the “Re-layer armor/clothing” menu it’s listed as “It is very bulky”

This also reproduces using large quiver in exactly the same way.

Extra note: for some inexplicable (to me) reason:

ACTUAL

long underwear top (fits) + trenchcoat (fits) + backpack                 => 1+0=1
long underwear top (fits) + trenchcoat (fits) + backpack + quiver (fits) => 1+0=1

Perhaps this has to do with the trenchcoat property called “This is worn over other clothes”?

[Coolthulhu]

Perhaps this has to do with the trenchcoat property called “This is worn over other clothes”?

Clothing layering isn’t very simple.
Here’s a guide:

http://www.wiki.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?title=Clothing_Encumbrance

In short:
In your first example you used 2 pairs of items in the same layer: long underwear top and kevlar vest are both skintight, backpack and quiver are both strapped.
In the second example, only one pair of items is in the same layer: backpack and quiver.

“It is very bulky” refers to it being wearable by mutants who have this body part too deformed to wear normal clothing.

[Pandromidal]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:6, topic:8947”]Clothing layering isn’t very simple.
Here’s a guide:

http://www.wiki.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?title=Clothing_Encumbrance[/quote]

Ok thanks. I appreciate the response.

I think the guide on the wiki is slightly wrong. Layers are summed but for each layer, if I understand, the encumbrance can’t be less than zero. So I think there is a step missing for each layer: “If the number is less than 0, then use 0”.

There is something to be said for how convoluted this is. Maybe a start would be getting rid of where it says “This small item won’t encumber you”?

[Coolthulhu]

[quote=“Pandromidal, post:7, topic:8947”]I think the guide on the wiki is slightly wrong. Layers are summed but for each layer, if I understand, the encumbrance can’t be less than zero. So I think there is a step missing for each layer: “If the number is less than 0, then use 0”.

There is something to be said for how convoluted this is. Maybe a start would be getting rid of where it says “This small item won’t encumber you”?[/quote]

Good catch, updated.

Yeah, probably. It’s probably a leftover from some earlier version before “and layers easily” was mentioned in file description. Sent a fix.

[Pandromidal]

Since quivers and large quivers are in the same layer as backpacks, doesn’t this make them really poor storage? When would these actually be advantageous beyond making the firing interface less annoying. As it is, I think there’s even a chance that my shot will fail because I didn’t have enough skill to draw the arrow.

[Coolthulhu]

Like with most balancing, overpowered things get nerfed, but nobody notices the underpowered things. We still have the makeshift macuahuitl, which I don’t think anyone ever crafted outside the testing phase. Or recipes for arrows that cost 5 superglue.

If you have a good idea on how to fix it, it would be the best idea to write and send a fix yourself.

[Pandromidal]

If you have a good idea on how to fix it, it would be the best idea to write and send a fix yourself.

That’s the thing, I DON’T know what the solution is. I can’t tell if the character can fire arrows faster from a quiver. That would certainly make it worthwhile, and would explain why there is a chance for failure (at least I think there is a chance for failure).

I’ve been having fun posting on the forums sharing my opinions, learning new things, but I’m still new to the forums. I hope I haven’t wasted your time. This will be my first bug filed for an publicly available open source project.

[Coolthulhu]

[quote=“Pandromidal, post:11, topic:8947”]That’s the thing, I DON’T know what the solution is. I can’t tell if the character can fire arrows faster from a quiver. That would certainly make it worthwhile, and would explain why there is a chance for failure (at least I think there is a chance for failure).

I’ve been having fun posting on the forums sharing my opinions, learning new things, but I’m still new to the forums. I hope I haven’t wasted your time. This will be my first bug filed for an publicly available open source project.[/quote]

I just looked into it. Apparently there is a chance to fail and it’s not compensated by anything, making quivers quite useless.

You didn’t waste time. I’m just encouraging everyone to send fixes, because it’s the most effective way of solving things around here and it’s not as hard as it looks. Plus, learning git can be useful.