I would really appreciate the height advantages of being on a higher floor, along with all the other improvements. I’m not saying that Lazycat’s implementation is bad, but it doesn’t provide a jumping-off point to do all the other things we need in a second-third-fourth and so on Z level.
We need to revamp the current code instead of making clip-art of what’s already there.
Question: What about scent, sight and sound through zlevels as far as Z’s are concerned? and then, what about a pathing system to bring a Z across a level, up the stairs, across another level and finally to the player? what about things in the way?
multiply this by 10, 20 or even 30 as some times occurs in towns.
I’m concerned about the already fragile balance between awesome features and cpu usage on a single core (if this is in fact a single core game)
You do take damage for each level you fall down, just like in missile silo. You can not display multiple z-levels at once in 2D game with ASCII graphics, can you? Why is it not enough to simply just have those upper floors like there are basements and caves?
If, instead, a Judo artist throws someone out the window, I'd expect the throwee to end up on the relevant lower level--probably the ground, and probably with some smashing damage depending on the fall. I've heard the suggestion that anything ending up in open air simply be deleted...and I don't appreciate that idea. Seems unnecessarily punitive: "Sorry, you don't get the drops from that kill because your Throw, that you can't actually control, went out the window." Worse: "Oops, you fell from a high place and are instantly killed, no damage, no saving throw, nothing, here's your final score and your corpse isn't even lootable because we delete things that fall."
Anything can be made, the only actual limit is ASCII graphics. Throwing, hanging, jumping from balcony to balcony, or from a roof with a parachute or glider, even helicopters and planes you could fly. But you have to start somewhere. If they don’t merge the basic ability to include above ground z-levels in the in the game Acidia will not design them, and than obviously there will be nothing to improve where there is nothing to even start with.
Going high up indeed ought to provide better overmap info. As it stands, there's not much to be gained from an Office Tower. If (for illustration purposes) making it to the Nth floor and using the Observation Binocs there revealed surface map data for a N+1 radius, that could come in handy, and seems achievable with the existing codebase. Ideally, simply looking out the window from a high place ought to provide longer map-exploration range.
It is easy to provide better overmap info similar to how binoculars work, but if you try to display any ground tiles on a play-field on upper floors every floor will just look as if it is on the ground level.
And, obviously, snipers like being high up so they can see farther and shoot over obstacles. That's another reason why Z-levels really ought to be able to interact with each other. (Especially with that new sniper-scope: I can envision someone picking off the M 5 blocks away, saving xyr injured comrades who were ust barely winning against the generic zeds.
Unlike almost everything else, sniping monsters on the ground level from some upper floor could actually be done without being awkward, but only if there is sniper scope view like in my mod, otherwise it just looks like you are on the ground floor, it kills illusion of being on upper level, feels wrong and unnatural to the game.
Yeah, it's glaring that the Office Tower only has a basement. I suggest that it'd be more glaring if the 10th floor provided no terrain advantage over the second, though.
How about you have to go through thousand zombies to get to the roof of the office tower where amazing loot awaits, and you have option to go through office cubicles and use the stairs, or get out of the window to jump from ledge to a ledge and scale the building from the outside, or take some gasoline to power window washing elevator? That can be be done right now. Isn’t that fun enough?
How about going up in a church bell tower and ring the bell to attract all the zombies in the city? That can be done right now. Isn’t that fun enough? How about about climbing radio tower just so you can repair something on the top for some NPC mission. Isn’t just the possibility to get there fun enough to justify it should be included in the game?
AFAIK the head devs want a different system for Z-levels before they add to it. One that can actually be used in a plethora of ways.
Unfortunately they are aiming WAY too high for anything to be implemented anytime soon.
Just look a Dwarf fortress. THAT doesn’t even have visible z-levels(see: functional) and it is an extremely complex rogue like.
(university grade geology for those that don’t know.)
The current system, not just lazys addition, feels like a hack. The game just doesn’t handle z-levels well enough, keeping them under ground is the only way of limiting their shittyness showing through. The way they are implemented now is basically to say “well…that feature is TECHNICALLY in” and the head devs know this. That is why they don’t want to add to it.
It is broken as is and they want to fix it before the add to it. I guess so there is less to fix later.
Until the entire game is recoded with complex z-levels in mind they are most likely going to stay shitty and unimplemented.
Just think of just how complex this actually needs to be for it to work…
The play area needs reformatting to accommodate the multi-floor view.
The AI needs to change to allow climbing and multi-floor view.
The saving system needs to accommodate the extra floors.
Existing buildings need redesigning for multiple stories.
Combat needs to allow for z-levels.
Climbing and descending need to be implemented.
Flying needs to be implemented.
Gravity needs to be implemented properly.
Fire and collapse need to be worked in.
The map reveal system needs to change.
Plus the head devs want:
The construction system needs to allow multiple floors.
Flying enemies need to be created.
Alternate means of moving vertically, like abseiling, rappelling, wall climbing etc
Easy, clear coding.
And my own request: Complex parkour needs to be implemented.
This is a MAJOR project that will take a lot of time. The ENTIRE GAME needs to change before z-level can be merged.
Instead of infighting you coders need to work together and start spit balling some ways to actually put this in!
That was my 2 cents. Here are my suggestions:
For the actual view of the game there are two ways to do it. Multiple screens or a level view switcher.
I vote for the switcher, make the mouse wheel scroll the floors up and down since the screen is small enough as it is.
Quick and easy play wise. Still pretty sucky for seeing “oh shit” moments like a brute above a hole in the roof.
Probably having flashing ^Z and ^? symbols to indicate an enemy and sound on the above floors and v for lowers.
Just alternate between ^ or v, Z and current floor symbol played a few times. Eg . . . ^Z . . .^Z
For empty space show . .^ . .^
The main problem isn’t mine though…I don’t have to code the bitch 
Good luck to those that do…you deserve it.
You can with my suggestion above
Why is it not enough to simply just have those upper floors like there are basements and caves?
Because that sucks the fat hairy balls of boredom.
you have to start somewhere.
See: the entire game.
If they don't merge the basic ability to include above ground z-levels in the in the game Acidia will not design them, and than obviously there will be nothing to improve where there is nothing to even start with.Look at it the other way...The maps may be handled a completely different way. IMO it is better to have a working system and make stuff for it than to have a broken system and broken features then fix both...That is like double speak.
but if you try to display any ground tiles on a play-field on upper floors every floor will just look as if it is on the ground level.
See my ^…^… suggestion above.
Sniping and aiming in your modSo much NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!! I personally think your method is pretty bad... But I don't have an alternative.
How about you have to go through thousand zombies to get to the roof of the office tower where amazing loot awaits, and you have option to go through office cubicles and use the stairs, or get out of the window to jump from ledge to a ledge and scale the building from the outside, or take some gasoline to power window washing elevator? That can be be done right now. Isn't that fun enough?
Sure if you can have them run at the window elevator to get at you and fall to their deaths then loot the bodies…Can your system do that?
As for a special loot drop…meh too gamey for a survival sim like Cata:DDA
How about going up in a church bell tower and ring the bell to attract all the zombies in the city? That can be done right now. Isn't that fun enough? How about about climbing radio tower just so you can repair something on the top for some NPC mission. Isn't just the possibility to get there fun enough to justify it should be included in the game?
But could the zombies climb after you? Could you shoot at them from above? Could you accidentally toss a mininuke instead of a molotov and collapse the tower?
All of these should be in the game…But not as a half functioning POS.
What, why, how?
It is broken as is and they want to fix it before the add to it. I guess so there is less to fix later.
What? What is broken, what are you talking about?
This is a MAJOR project that will take a lot of time. The ENTIRE GAME needs to change before z-level can be merged.
By that logic they shouldn’t have put roads in the game until random vehicles spawned on it.
Upper floors have their value in just providing variety like any other floor of any other new building. Refusing to have them because you can’t shoot monsters on the level below is as ludicrous as refusing to have basements just because you can’t shoot monsters on the level above. No one cared about that shit before, so how come it is so important all of a sudden?
For the actual view of the game there are two ways to do it. Multiple screens or a level view switcher. I vote for the switcher, make the mouse wheel scroll the floors up and down since the screen is small enough as it is. Quick and easy play wise. Still pretty sucky for seeing "oh shit" moments like a brute above a hole in the roof.Probably having flashing ^Z and ^? symbols to indicate an enemy and sound on the above floors and v for lowers.
Just alternate between ^ or v, Z and current floor symbol played a few times. Eg . . . ^Z . . .^Z
For empty space show . .^ . .^
Is there any fun factor and gameplay value in any of that, or does it just unnecessarily complicates everything for no good reason?
Because that sucks the fat hairy balls of boredom.
Yeah? So can you explain then, if underground garage makes office tower more interesting, why for example church bell tower wouldn’t make churches more interesting?
Look at it the other way...The maps may be handled a completely different way. IMO it is better to have a working system and make stuff for it than to have a broken system and broken features then fix both...That is like double speak.
Above ground levels are working as good as the rest of the game. Not good enough for you? Too bad.
So much NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!! I personally think your method is pretty bad... But I don't have an alternative.
Huh? You mean this:
What, why, how?
Isn’t that how all the other games are doing it? Is there even any other way?
Sure if you can have them run at the window elevator to get at you and fall to their deaths then loot the bodies...Can your system do that?
My system is about initialising above ground z-levels, nothing else. But as I said stuff like that are trivial additions and can be done in 15 minutes, but why and how would anyone do it if there are no any upper levels in the game to start with?
But could the zombies climb after you? Could you shoot at them from above? Could you accidentally toss a mininuke instead of a molotov and collapse the tower?
Can you shoot monsters on the ground level from a basement? No? Can you throw a grenade up the stairs from a basement? No? Obviously basements should not be in the game then, right?
Above ground z-levels would be a big change to the current game, it doesn’t really feel necessary if it’s done as a quick hack as people have described it, especially if it will make it harder to implement properly in the future.
Being able to shoot off roofs seems one of the big reasons to climb up to them, but if Zs can’t climb up themselves, it seems it could be a huge balance issue. Flying monsters would change a lot, but all in all this feels like a huge change to the feel of the game.
Not a change at all, but very natural extension to the game. Going up to 1st floor above ground is exactly the same as going from missile silo 3rd floor to 2nd floor basement. It’s not any kind of hack, it’s absolutely the same, and therefore makes no difference what so ever to any re-writes and whatever new implementations in the future.
What would make it really hard is not having it at all. When you don’t have something you can not improve it. How can this not be clear to so many, you have to start somewhere, nothing writes itself from scratch to completion. Wake up people!
Do basements feel necessary? Schools, are they necessary? Office towers, office cubicles, doctor’s office, or any of the new buildings, do they feel necessary?
No, but they are fun. It’s not about necessity, it’s about variety. And everyone likes new buildings, everyone wants them, and everyone wants more. So how in the world can you want more and not want more in the same time? How can you want underground garage and don’t want 10 stories high garage? It doesn’t make any sense.
Being able to shoot off roofs seems one of the big reasons to climb up to them, but if Zs can't climb up themselves, it seems it could be a huge balance issue. Flying monsters would change a lot, but all in all this feels like a huge change to the feel of the game.
What’s the reason to go down into basement or a cave? What’s the reason to go anywhere? Why is that same reason not enough for above ground levels if it is good enough for everything else?
TheRealTenman, just to be clear, when I talk about being to see and interact with multiple z-levels, I was intending to describe a system similar to Dwarf Fortress, where you can easily toggle the view between them. Plus, Dwarf fortress actually DOES let you see multiple z-levels at once (2, mind you) and makes it quite easy to distinguish between the two. I’d like a similar system for this game. I like your idea for spotting enemies on different levels, too. I hadn’t actually thought of that, and it’s got lots of promise.
Can you point some screenshot or video where we can see those multi levels at once in DF?
Here’s a quick image from google search
Top right shows the other level.
I was actually talking about the ability to see z-levels that are one level lower on the actual main screen.
Here’s an example:
Notice in the top right corner. Information for lower levels is reduced, but you can get an idea of the terrain on lower levels and the stuff that is there.
A pretty simple solution to the immediate problem is if you could use the <> keys while ‘;’ looking or ‘f’ firing to view different levels, which is similar to how DF does it.
I’d like that for the world map as well. I want to plot my next move from the safety of my LMOE shelter without having to climb up the stairs.
Personally I can see having both. It would be nice to see lower levels, but the window-in-a-window interface also works remarkably well for rougelike games, and can easily be extended to provide feedback of the space immediately above you that is visible as well as spaces below you. The flashing ^/Z idea is also rather unique, and could be utilized to allow you to notice enemies that are within your sight range due to diagonals through holes or other potential viewpoints.
Also:
So +1. IT would be very nice to have the addition of moving the world map up or down a level so that you can plan where to go next.
and @ LazyCat:
I think there is one thing you aren’t realizing here. Under the current z-levels system, it is impossible to implement the features listed by TheRealTenman (which I think sums up the dev goals fairly well). Regardless of how much reworking you do, it’s simply not possible under the current system, nor even with some significant rewriting. Thus that system will need to be completely reworked at some point in order to add those goals (this indeed differs from your road/wreck example, in that the current road code was completely sufficient for the addition of wrecks and required no significant rewriting).
This means that any addition to the current system must then be weighed against problems that it might cause when said system is rewritten; which comes down to the opinions of the devs (TheDarklingWorlf, GlyphGryph, and Kevingrande) to determine if any given addition is worth the amount of potential work that may be created later. If they decide yes, then it goes in, if they decide no, then it doesn’t. As the main proprietors of the game it’s their job to decide that, and if you don’t like it then you can always create your own branch (as you have so rightly done). In this case they decided that the amount gained by your particular code extension was not worth the amount of potential work created when the old code and your code needed to be reworked in order to enable the addition of the dev goals, and as such it was not added to the game. The idea here isn’t “getting started in the right direction”, it’s “Is the amount we gain by moving a little in the wrong direction worth the extra movement we need to do to go forward later?”
I’m also one of the core devs, and while I can’t necessarily speak for the others, I can at least explain my criteria for z-levels.
First of all, any z-level system would need to be functional - which includes having no major bugs, and not exacerbating existing bugs. It also needs to either be a well-written, extensible system that we can use as the starting point for future expansion; or it needs to add compelling new content (current content, not potential future content).
The proposed z-level implementation fails the functional/bug-free check. There’s “sky”, but out of the several types of commonly-moving entities, the player is the only one that interacts properly with that sky. Yes, I’m aware that this is an existing bug, but it’s one that’s exacerbated by the proposed implementation. And no, insulting me or saying that it’s not your problem isn’t going to change my mind.
The proposed implementation also isn’t a well-written, extensible starting point (more on what that would look like later). Nor is the new content particularly compelling: it’s slightly more space in the evac shelter, and a platformer puzzle with some arbitrary loot at the top. The evac shelter has enough space for its current needs, and arbitrary puzzles/loot aren’t thematically appropriate for a survival game like Cataclysm.
I can imagine things that would make me accept a hacky implementation, on the grounds that the new content is worth the trouble. One thing that might do the trick is church bells that draw zombies from afar. Because that would indeed be awesome. However, the proposed code doesn’t move us closer to that goal in any appreciable way, because there are more fundamental problems with that idea than just having nowhere to put the bell tower. Nor are above-ground z-levels necessary to start working on those problems; we could just use subways/basements and the ground level as our testbed.
So, enough about the current proposal, for now. I’ve talked about a well-written, extensible z-level system. What do I mean by that?
Basically, there are several limitations to the current system. If someone is able to remove those limitations, without sacrificing too much performance, that would significantly increase the chance of their code being accepted.
First off, different levels aren’t treated as part of the same physical space - the “stairs” we have may as well be inter-dimensional portals. That’s fine for most roguelikes (where “level” is an abstract concept anyway), but it doesn’t suffice for simulation games like Cataclysm or Dwarf Fortress. Our current system is one where if you’re in the basement, the above-ground area simply does not exist as far as the game is concerned. That’s bad, because it means that we can’t easily interact with other z-levels, and anything that WAS on that other z-level (monsters, fire, etc.) simply stops functioning. Incidentally, this is one of the two biggest limitations to the church bell idea (the other limitation is that the world also stops existing past a certain distance away from the player).
Second, there’s also no easy concept of “above” or “below” - the z-coordinate isn’t used anywhere, so when we want to do something like get_tile(x, y, z+1)… we can’t. We’ve got a series of unrelated squares, rather than the 3D cube that we need. Making it so that z-coordinates exist and are usable would also be a good starting point, although it may require redoing some of the code’s basic architecture.
Those are things that I would consider merging into mainline, even if there were no real change to content (other than maybe fixing some of the bugs we currently have, due to the hacky z-level implementation we’re using).
On top of that, there’s the issue of UI. But, UI is not a prerequisite for changing the underlying system (in fact, it’s sort of the other way around). And there are workable UI ideas floating around, both in Dwarf Fortress (try Adventure mode), and in TheRealTenman’s post.
[quote=“i2amroy, post:34, topic:1229”]and @ LazyCat:
I think there is one thing you aren’t realizing here. Under the current z-levels system, it is impossible to implement the features listed by TheRealTenman (which I think sums up the dev goals fairly well). Regardless of how much reworking you do, it’s simply not possible under the current system, nor even with some significant rewriting. Thus that system will need to be completely reworked at some point in order to add those goals (this indeed differs from your road/wreck example, in that the current road code was completely sufficient for the addition of wrecks and required no significant rewriting).
This means that any addition to the current system must then be weighed against problems that it might cause when said system is rewritten; which comes down to the opinions of the devs (TheDarklingWorlf, GlyphGryph, and Kevingrande) to determine if any given addition is worth the amount of potential work that may be created later. If they decide yes, then it goes in, if they decide no, then it doesn’t. As the main proprietors of the game it’s their job to decide that, and if you don’t like it then you can always create your own branch (as you have so rightly done). In this case they decided that the amount gained by your particular code extension was not worth the amount of potential work created when the old code and your code needed to be reworked in order to enable the addition of the dev goals, and as such it was not added to the game. The idea here isn’t “getting started in the right direction”, it’s “Is the amount we gain by moving a little in the wrong direction worth the extra movement we need to do to go forward later?”[/quote]
Above ground z-levels work exactly the same as underground z-levels and therefore make no difference what so ever to any re-writes and whatever new implementations in the future.
In other words, any reason to not have above ground z-levels is as good reason to throw underground levels from the game. It’s the same thing. Which means your logic is inconsistent and thus you reasons are wrong.
Have you seen 1st floor of the shelter in my mod? Is it any worse than the basement? No, it’s better, it has few gameplay elements more, you can jump through the window and walk on outside ledge around the building. And ain’t that cool?
In other words, any reason to not have above ground z-levels is as good reason to throw underground levels from the game. It's the same thing. Which means your logic is inconsistent and thus you reasons are wrong.Having extra z-levels either way is a good thing if that's what you're arguing about. However, the argument is based in effort required versus reward gained, not whether or not these things should be in the game. Underground z-levels are already in the game, and I got the impression they want to change those along with the system.
Doing any work on z-levels that isn’t remaking the system to work as they envision is going in the wrong direction, because all the changes (or additions) will have to be thrown out or reworked depending on what the new system is. It’s less work overall for the same amount of progress to just not do that stuff now, and instead do that work in the new system.
That said, I realize that you’ve already done work along this vein, but it’s still additional work for the devs to merge this stuff, and they’d apparently rather rework the system first, so arguing about it serves little purpose.
Personally, I still plan on playing your mod more, since I really enjoy a lot of your changes, and having multiple levels, even if they aren’t quite as awesome as they could be.
[quote=“Soron, post:35, topic:1229”]I’m also one of the core devs, and while I can’t necessarily speak for the others, I can at least explain my criteria for z-levels.
First of all, any z-level system would need to be functional - which includes having no major bugs, and not exacerbating existing bugs. It also needs to either be a well-written, extensible system that we can use as the starting point for future expansion; or it needs to add compelling new content (current content, not potential future content).[/quote]
My code is just a way to initialise above ground z-levels using YOUR existing code already in the game. It’s more than starting point, it’s already established system.
The proposed z-level implementation fails the functional/bug-free check. There's "sky", but out of the several types of commonly-moving entities, the player is the only one that interacts properly with that sky. Yes, I'm aware that this is an existing bug, but it's one that's exacerbated by the proposed implementation. And no, insulting me or saying that it's not your problem isn't going to change my mind.
It’s just a way to initialize above ground z-levels so Acidia can design and test them in the game. It is not meant to fix bugs in monster and trap handling code, it has nothing to do with it. Besides, can you not do it yourself?
The proposed implementation also isn't a well-written, extensible starting point (more on what that would look like later).
I didn’t write anything new, just copied the same thing how underground levels are done, only with plus instead of minus sign. Not well written? Don’t be so hard on yourself, at least it works.
Nor is the new content particularly compelling: it's slightly more space in the evac shelter, and a platformer puzzle with some arbitrary loot at the top. The evac shelter has enough space for its current needs, and arbitrary puzzles/loot aren't thematically appropriate for a survival game like Cataclysm.
Jumping and jumping puzzles are not any kind of thematic element, they are general gameplay elements fit for any genre, like smashing windows, climbing over chain fence, or puzzling how to go through temples or take down triffid heart. Jumping makes game richer by providing new ways to interact with the environment, be there designed puzzles or not. It only takes a little bit of imagination to combine it with other elements in the game.
I can imagine things that would make me accept a hacky implementation, on the grounds that the new content is worth the trouble. One thing that might do the trick is church bells that draw zombies from afar. Because that would indeed be [i]awesome[/i]. However, the proposed code doesn't move us closer to that goal in any appreciable way, because there are more fundamental problems with that idea than just having nowhere to put the bell tower. Nor are above-ground z-levels necessary to start working on those problems; we could just use subways/basements and the ground level as our testbed.
Nowhere to put bell tower? How about church?
The only actual problem you have are monsters not using stairs properly, which I can explain how to fix if you are interested. Are you interested? Anyway, once you fix that there are no any real problems left, only cosmetic trivialities.
[quote=“Weyrling, post:37, topic:1229”]
In other words, any reason to not have above ground z-levels is as good reason to throw underground levels from the game. It’s the same thing. Which means your logic is inconsistent and thus you reasons are wrong.
For your use of the existing code I would like to point out that the current implementation of pseudo z-levels was something created by Whales back in the old cataclysm days, before this mod separated out. Thus it is not the current dev’s (including Soron, my bad for forgetting you there :P) code, rather it is old code that we don’t like. This is one of the reasons why they don’t want to include more of it; the system that Whales utilized is intrinsically faulty for the purposes that they would like to utilize it for, and thus must be written.
As for my logic, I would like to point that the claim that reasons not to increase utilization and those to continue current utilization are two completely different things. Your statement that “any reason to not have above ground z-levels is as good reason to throw underground levels from the game” would be exactly the same as saying “any reason to not use cars more is as good a reason to take away your current cars”. Just because a reason is valid to prevent further use of a system (in this case because said increase would not be worth the extra work later [1 bonus - 2 work = -1 total]) does not mean it is a valid reason for the removal of the system without a replacement (since the current implementation requires no extra work penalty regardless of if we remove it or leave it in, meaning the balance now favors leaving it in [0 negative - 0 work = 0 total vs 1 negative - 0 work = -1 total]).
[quote=“Weyrling, post:37, topic:1229”]Having extra z-levels either way is a good thing if that’s what you’re arguing about.
However, the argument is based in effort required versus reward gained, not whether or not these things should be in the game.[/quote]
The only effort required is to just draw those levels like any other. Reward is having those levels, like any other. The guy who is making all these new buildings said he would design upper floors if they could be in the game. I gave them the code that does exactly that, and now here we are.
Underground z-levels are already in the game, and I got the impression they want to change those along with the system.
They could just as well want to change the game to 3D graphics. Whether there will be upper floors until then makes no difference. It’s just a matter of drawing them on the map, or not.
Doing any work on z-levels that isn't remaking the system to work as they envision is going in the wrong direction, because all the changes (or additions) will have to be thrown out or reworked depending on what the new system is. It's less work overall for the same amount of progress to just not do that stuff now, and instead do that work in the new system.That said, I realize that you’ve already done work along this vein, but it’s still additional work for the devs to merge this stuff, and they’d apparently rather rework the system first, so arguing about it serves little purpose.
Whether there will be new office tower with underground garage or a church with bell tower is absolutely the same. They are already putting great effort into existing system by adding all these new buildings. Does that look to you like they are planning to rewrite anything any time soon, or that they are really bothered by any of the supposed shortcomings?
