6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game

Game Talk The Bunker
381

It has nothing to do with squeamishness and everything to do with the fact that it wouldn’t work. And ignorant? Really? Are you saying that you’re omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation? Maggot therapy is a specialized treatment for very specific types of wounds that uses (and contrary to popular belief this has been the case throughout history as well) specially bred medical maggots. And the examples you gave completely prove my point. People who slice off infected limbs and tissue are using sound logic and reasoning to solve the problem. People who drink poop liqueur because they think it will fix all of their medical problems are delusional. People who infect themselves with a dangerous parasite because they think it’s a better idea than going for a fucking bike-ride are delusional.

People who would kill a possibly radioactive giant animal that is almost surely completely genetically different from the thing that it evolved from and rub it’s babies all over an infected wound under the assumption that they will behave exactly like other maggots (which is a planet sized assumption) are delusional. Even if all of these completely baseless assumptions turned out to be accurate it would still be an idiotic idea because a “hardened survivor” as you describe would most likely have the equipment and knowledge to debride the wound in a more reliable, effective, and SANE (this IS the correct word in this situation) way. It doesn’t require much, just a sharp blade, some rags, and the ability to boil water.[/quote]

Gonna be that guy here, but hook worm has been known to cure people of a fuckload of allergies. We didn’t actually have rampant allergies until the invention of the outhouse, believe it or not.

And as a corollary, the lone-star tick can cause Alpha-gal allergies (which is a type of sugar found only in mammals that aren’t primates), which means ‘red meat allergy’

Both do so by tacking on a bunch of shit to a familiar compound. Like, the lone-star tick will wrap an alpha-gal sugar in a bunch of weird garbage in order to trick something or rather (I forget), so your body develops an anti-body for alpha-gal, making you allergic to meat sugar.

so yeah, if you’re suddenly allergic to red meat, you probably got bit by a lone-star tick.

382

If came to “gameplay-realism” relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it’s lot’s of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don’t have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).

Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.

383

[quote=“Uweron, post:382, topic:12504”]If came to “gameplay-realism” relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it’s lot’s of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don’t have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).

Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.[/quote]

You’re gonna have to try a little harder with your English, because what you just said made no sense.

384

[quote=“Subhazard, post:383, topic:12504”][quote=“Uweron, post:382, topic:12504”]If came to “gameplay-realism” relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it’s lot’s of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don’t have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).

Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.[/quote]

You’re gonna have to try a little harder with your English, because what you just said made no sense.[/quote]

I can read it. What is your problem?

385

[quote=“BorkBorkGoesTheCode, post:384, topic:12504”][quote=“Subhazard, post:383, topic:12504”][quote=“Uweron, post:382, topic:12504”]If came to “gameplay-realism” relationship in terms cure of wounds, this game need just two new method. Clean wound by strong alcohol (in game it’s lot’s of various alcohol and most of people know that alcohol=>clean wound.) and soap and water (overall lesser know method, but it really can make miracles. Same soap bars don’t have big gameplay value overall, so wounds disinfections just add new opportunities for this item in the game).

Put mutated flies in wound have same level of logic, like attack giant wasp armed only in pocket knife. We can make it, but nobody do it.[/quote]

You’re gonna have to try a little harder with your English, because what you just said made no sense.[/quote]

I can read it. What is your problem?[/quote]

An inability to read, apparently.

386

He’s saying we should have the ability to clean bite wounds with either alcohol or soap and water.

I love non-native English posters, you guys brighten up my day.

387

I think the example should be attacking zombie with wasp sting.

388

No, YOU are saying that.[/quote]

Fair enough. I was asking for that one. Can we agree to disagree and continue to be forum bros?

389

I don’t hold grudges, some shitslinging is an inherent part of being online for as long as it doesn’t get to personal insults/politics/morality etc.

390

I always found weird how the game doesn’t consider the different disinfectant level of soap/alcoholic drink/ethanol/disinfectant brand X.

391

off-topic:[spoiler]

I don’t hold grudges, some shitslinging is an inherent part of being online for as long as it doesn’t get to personal insults/politics/morality etc.[/quote]

Love you guys. Keep that way. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Shopkeeper, post:386, topic:12504”]He’s saying we should have the ability to clean bite wounds with either alcohol or soap and water.

I love non-native English posters, you guys brighten up my day.[/quote]

As a non-native English poster, I can relate to that :smiley: It’s funny that being raised on my own english, I can pretty much understand bad-formed sentences better that most people. (It applies to this one xD)[/spoiler]
on-topic: Like some people said, I think it’s a generally good ideia to give more uses to soap. It could raise a little bit the wound’s chance to heal itself. But yeah, that’s up to our dev god’s to ponderate if this is code-friendly.

392

[quote=“AdonaiJr, post:391, topic:12504”]off-topic:[spoiler]

I don’t hold grudges, some shitslinging is an inherent part of being online for as long as it doesn’t get to personal insults/politics/morality etc.[/quote]
Love you guys. Keep that way. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Shopkeeper, post:386, topic:12504”]He’s saying we should have the ability to clean bite wounds with either alcohol or soap and water.

I love non-native English posters, you guys brighten up my day.[/quote]

As a non-native English poster, I can relate to that :smiley: It’s funny that being raised on my own english, I can pretty much understand bad-formed sentences better that most people. (It applies to this one xD)[/spoiler]
on-topic: Like some people said, I think it’s a generally good ideia to give more uses to soap. It could raise a little bit the wound’s chance to heal itself. But yeah, that’s up to our dev god’s to ponderate if this is code-friendly.[/quote]
What uses would be acceptable?

393

Having applied soap use up few units of water to apply “cleaned wound” status could be a thing. As long as it didn’t require constant reapplying, since that would be tedious.
Though it would require some (probably minor) reworking of the body part selection menu, to allow picking infected wounds without curing them outright.

394

I share how i see the current status of the CDDA as a gamer. My english sucks, so be forgiving. It is not a rant, i love this game very much, i just wrote out what i see as a problem, so maybe a developer will agree with it and fix them or someone points out why i am wrong. :slight_smile:

As i see, some parts of the game is too easy to implement and that parts are bloated, while other parts are negleted because there is no clear direction to follow.

Too many recipes:
We have so many items in the game, the selection is overwhelming. Most of them are not necessary, they are mostly cosmetical items (like wrist bandoliner for extra 4 ammo) or two-in-one items (like the l-stick, a stylish walking staff without fancy tag but glowing and accidentaly good for fighting). While i’m against that kind of items - but it is my personal problem -, the main problem is the crafting menu is overflowed by them. I don’t think there is anyone who using more than a small percents of the recipes. As a solution i think we needs several books for each “group”, like “Mexican foods for beginners”, “Vegetarian wonders”, “Campfire cooking”, “Vehicle electronics”, etc. each with some but mostly separate recipes, so the player can choose and discard the unwanted recipe books. Also there are too many autolearned recipes, they needs a review or a separate tab in the crafting menu, like a “frozen foods”, “canning”, etc.

Too complex:
I think the vehicle and weapon realism are too complex to please an average gamer. It’s kinda fun but overwhelming and not fully understandable. I’m sure they please the experts but i’m not sure about anyone else. There should be a limit of the complexity, like nobody wants to implement a Linux CLI for the computers, because it would be unnecessary, the simple computer menu is fine.

Already implemented but not used:
I think food gathering should be a challenge, but it is the easiest part of the game. It should be 3 steps: looting for food before they rot -> growing food or hunting for food -> eating monster meat or items through CBM or mutation. While every steps is already implemented in the game, the first step is ever presenting and make the others unnecessary. Maybe in the future, people are pursuit healthy living so canned foods are rare? Food processing is so advanced nobody eats preserved foods because they prefer the fresh “bio-foods” only? Also i don’t think i should see fresh spoilable food anywhere in the game after a season, which i can.

Lack of coherence:
I think the greatest problem with the game, there are plenty of idea but there is no coherence. Items implemented needlessly and without balance and they are obsolete each others, there are many items in the game which are never used, because there are plenty better and easily accessible alternative. Or look at the monster evolution. As i see, it was an answer to the overpowered weapons, because monsters became unchallenging. This change gave us a great variation of monsters which is good, but in the old versions the monsters was a threat, with this implementation the game became an arms race where most of the monsters are still losing badly, while others can unexpectedly instakill you (mostly smg enemies with lucky criticals). There should be a guideline which lays down some basic rules about how to create items. Also i think the project needs a discussion to lay down some facts about the game world to help the implementations of the new things, so they can connect to the world. Which leads my last remark.

Lack of flow:
One thing should leads to another one. The game world needs a flow, a goal where it is heading, bad goals seek by the monsters and a good goal seek by the player. Without this the game world is static and the development is filled with non-essential changes because there is no direction to follow. There should be global goals in the game or at least some local problems to solve, that would make the world alive. Now there is nothing to force us to do anything, there is no threat looming above our head, no creeping danger stalking on us. You can live your life comfortable in your base and sometimes you can go out for an adventure. We have the horde, which is a best example as a closing threat. The only other challenge if we foolishly choose to live next to some monster nest. We need more like the horde, but maybe less overwhelming. Like hunting mi-gos or other otherworldly horrors. Or portals just pop out and release a lot of monsters. Or threatening spread of the existing monsters so they will pose a threat eventually. Also there are many place in the game which can pose as a challenge, but because there is no story, there is no needs to visit them, except curiosity.

395

[quote=“latogato, post:394, topic:12504”]I share how i see the current status of the CDDA as a gamer. My english sucks, so be forgiving. It is not a rant, i love this game very much, i just wrote out what i see as a problem, so maybe a developer will agree with it and fix them or someone points out why i am wrong. :slight_smile:

As i see, some parts of the game is too easy to implement and that parts are bloated, while other parts are negleted because there is no clear direction to follow.

Too many receipts:
We have so many items in the game, the selection is overwhelming. Most of them are not necessary, they are mostly cosmetical items (like wrist bandoliner for extra 4 ammo) or two-in-one items (like the l-stick, a stylish walking staff without fancy tag but glowing and accidentaly good for fighting). While i’m against that kind of items - but it is my personal problem -, the main problem is the crafting menu is overflowed by them. I don’t think there is anyone who using more than a small percents of the receipts. As a solution i think we needs several books for each “group”, like “Mexican foods for beginners”, “Vegetarian wonders”, “Campfire cooking”, “Vehicle electronics”, etc. each with some but mostly separate receipts, so the player can choose and discard the unwanted receipt books. Also there are too many autolearned receipts, they needs a review or a separate tab in the crafting menu, like a “frozen foods”, “canning”, etc.[/quote]

A “hide recipe” button for the player could be useful. Or a blacklist.

[quote=“latogato, post:394, topic:12504”]Too complex:
I think the vehicle and weapon realism are too complex to please an average gamer. It’s kinda fun but overwhelming and not fully understandable. I’m sure they please the experts but i’m not sure about anyone else. There should be a limit of the complexity, like nobody wants to implement a Linux CLI for the computers, because it would be unnecessary, the simple computer menu is fine.[/quote]

I think the cause of the trend towards simple games is the loss of free time in recent decades; fewer people have the time to learn anything other than how to do their job and care for their family.
The game does have a problem with obscure features, due to lack of feedback. The interface needs to expand a little, or more signs of game mechanics at work need to appear.

[quote=“latogato, post:394, topic:12504”]Already implemented but not used:
I think food gathering should be a challenge, but it is the easiest part of the game. It should be 3 steps: looting for food before they rot -> growing food or hunting for food -> eating monster meat or items through CBM or mutation. While every steps is already implemented in the game, the first step is ever presenting and make the others unnecessary. Maybe in the future, people are pursuit healthy living so canned foods are rare? Food processing is so advanced nobody eats preserved foods because they prefer the fresh “bio-foods” only? Also i don’t think i should see fresh spoilable food anywhere in the game after a season, which i can.[/quote]

A major cause of this is the fact that all new terrain spawned at the edge of the map is untouched by the cataclysm. The grass will always be greener at the map edge, so why bother staying in one place?

[quote=“latogato, post:394, topic:12504”]Lack of flow:
One thing should leads to another one. The game world needs a flow, a goal where it is heading, bad goals seek by the monsters and a good goal seek by the player. Without this the game world is static and the development is filled with non-essential changes because there is no direction to follow. There should be global goals in the game or at least some local problems to solve, that would make the world alive. Now there is nothing to force us to do anything, there is no threat looming above our head, no creeping danger stalking on us. You can live your life comfortable in your base and sometimes you can go out for an adventure. We have the horde, which is a best example as a closing threat. The only other challenge if we foolishly choose to live next to some monster nest. We need more like the horde, but maybe less overwhelming. Like hunting mi-gos or other otherworldly horrors. Or portals just pop out and release a lot of monsters. Or threatening spread of the existing monsters so they will pose a threat eventually. Also there are many place in the game which can pose as a challenge, but because there is no story, there is no needs to visit them, except curiosity.[/quote]

It would be interesting to have faction strategy like Civilization, but I don’t know if it could be done with the computers available.

396

Yes, that was my first idea too, but i think the UI is already over-complicated or clogged and in-game-world solutions would be much better because changing settings are break the immersion, while throwing away recipe books are not.

397

both would be good. Even of the practical stuff, often you don’t want or need a lot of recipes. But it should be an In-game blacklist, or at least Also have the option for such, something like Don’t include ____ in recipes. Simmilar to the Auto pickup white-list but a blacklist instead. This should be used as a final filter though, not full solution. Main solution should come from other sources where possible.

398

I find myself going back and playing really old releases of cataclysm(when vehicles were just a mod), and having more fun. Not sure what that is about.

The newer versions seem to be suffering from performance problems, most likely due to an overload of features.
It’s somewhat playable, but long actions feel like a crawl.

I’d enjoy it a lot more if it had some polish and optimizations.
At the moment it feels as if I am pressing way too many buttons and waiting way too long to achieve too little.

399

[quote=“wad67, post:398, topic:12504”]I find myself going back and playing really old releases of cataclysm(when vehicles were just a mod), and having more fun. Not sure what that is about.

The newer versions seem to be suffering from performance problems, most likely due to an overload of features.
It’s somewhat playable, but long actions feel like a crawl.

I’d enjoy it a lot more if it had some polish and optimizations.
At the moment it feels as if I am pressing way too many buttons and waiting way too long to achieve too little.[/quote]

Don’t know how much fun would the old releases be compared to the current versions but I would admit that the 0.C stable (which I was playing for a long while until recently) is much more cleaner than the current experimentals.

But it’s also a fact that a lot of good stuff has been added (http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13526.0) to the experimentals and, imho, to the seasoned DDA player, these features should be “fun” enough to keep them from going back to the stable.

With 0.D seeming a long way (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/milestone/10) I would really suggest you to give the (latest) experimentals another try.

400

i agree with latogato from the part on where he talks about food.
letting food outside of your reality bubble perish is so easy to implement, a child could do it.
there definitely should be randomly spawning hordes and other enemies that attack your base, right now the world is way too static.
to make building your base less effort there should be some vehicle module that lets you build walls and fences and whatnot quicker. some kind of 3d printer with arms and hands.

lack of coherence is annoying indeed, like how soap is useful only for filthy clothes, and how zombie clothes can be filthy but you can wear the same gear forever and pick up clean apples dropped by boomers (boomers are naked, so where were they storing that apple?..) or how harvesting some plants opens an inventory menu whereas harvesting others drops the plant to the ground.

also there must be some modding API to let modders fix the broken world gen, right now it’s just awful. everything looks alike, there is no biomes, there’s too many shops and not enough houses, if city spacing is increased to a less retarded value then hospitals and schools are spawned too far away from towns, there’s almost no farms and no mass animal farming, where does all the food come from and why do computer consoles and bitcoin ATMs still have electricity and internet access but you can’t chat with other survivors, and where are the solar-powered bitcoin mining farms? certainly nobody thinks that legacy banking would still work after the cataclysm.
though i guess i could already mod some of that myself with the existing API.

other than that, cataclysm is pretty good. way more polished than many other FOSS games and less buggy than proprietary ones. except that one time when it told me it saved successfully when my partition was full and thus destroyed the world.
but at least it doesn’t “rm -rf --no-preserve-root /” like certain botnets.