6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game

[Shopkeeper]

[quote=“User, post:356, topic:12504”]Since we’re already talking about how to make the game more realistic…
Cauterization actually increases the risk of infection, according to wikipedia. This should be fixed imho.[/quote]
Currently cauterizing a wound has a 50% chance to heal it, otherwise it makes the bite worsen as if 43 minutes passed.

[pisskop]

Currently its almost pointless to cauterize wounds, Ive never gotten it to work without debugging and/or savescumming.

[Pthalocy]

Heh, 50% huh? I’m surprised it’s even that good. And yeah, I used to assume cautery was burning deep enough to roast all the bad tissue, but then I thought a little harder and realized a lighter and a makeshift knife is not going to reach deep enough.

I’ve been using cautery on my guy with masochism trait for the small morale boost when tatochips aren’t quite enough to let him craft.

[Noctifer]

I sometimes play as a bio_sniper in the helicopter crash scenario and cauterizing helps stop the bleeding but was not aware it could cure bites… Wouldn’t something like maggot treatment be better than cauterizing to prevent infection?

[jaked122]

I sometimes play as a bio_sniper in the helicopter crash scenario and cauterizing helps stop the bleeding but was not aware it could cure bites… Wouldn’t something like maggot treatment be better than cauterizing to prevent infection?

I don’t want any maggot infections more than we already have.

I mean, there is the bloatfly thing, isn’t there?

According to wikipedia it isn’t for every sort of wound

The wound must be of a type which can benefit from the application of maggot therapy. A moist, exudating wound with sufficient oxygen supply is a prerequisite. Not all wound-types are suitable: wounds which are dry, or open wounds of body cavities do not provide a good environment for maggots to feed. In some cases it may be possible to make a dry wound suitable for larval therapy by moistening it with saline soaks, applied for 48 hours.

And then there’s the additional requirement that the wound have necrotic tissue in order to benefit

In January 2004, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) granted permission to produce and market maggots for use in humans or animals as a prescription-only medical device for the following indications: "For debriding non-healing necrotic skin and soft tissue wounds, including pressure ulcers, venous stasis ulcers, neuropathic foot ulcers, and non-healing traumatic or post-surgical wounds."

Altogether, I’d rather avoid all of the realism that would be required for the game to model those requirements.

Just fucking let me have my first aid kit.

[Coolthulhu]

I’d allow maggot therapy like this: butcher giant fly, acquire eggs, apply eggs like medkit, lose infection but gain “fly infested” debuff that would cause some pain.
No need for any extra complexity here.

[Profugo_Barbatus]

I’d also apply some sort of significant morale debuff as well, it’d be pretty hard to be happy while you feel maggots squirming around your skin. Otherwise, sounds like a decent implementation.

[Ferodaktyl]

arent maggots for gangrene rather than infections ?

[Litppunk]

good vs rotten flesh… not something I think I would want to resort to though… especially since… where do you find “clean” maggots.

[Pthalocy]

arent maggots for gangrene rather than infections ?

Gangrene can be caused by infection, or by cut off circulation - which usually then results in infection entering via the dead tissue. It’s basically got all the requirements maggots need as listed in an above post. It’d be a better bet to save your bug eggs for gangrene than other types of infection, definitely.

[SpadeDraco]

[quote=“Ferodaktyl, post:368, topic:12504”]arent maggots for gangrene rather than infections ?

Gangrene can be caused by infection, or by cut off circulation - which usually then results in infection entering via the dead tissue. It’s basically got all the requirements maggots need as listed in an above post. It’d be a better bet to save your bug eggs for gangrene than other types of infection, definitely.[/quote]

No offense, but this seems insane. Like, literally insane… Especially Coolthulu’s rendition that involves ripping a pulsing ootheca from the corpse of a mutant fly creature and smearing it’s babies all over yourself. Nobody in their right mind would do that. Ever. There are dozens of other more sensical ways of treating an infected wound that aren’t represented in the game.

[Pthalocy]

I absolutely agree haha! My thoughts were dwelling on regular-sized flies, which I suppose don’t exist in C:DDA in any capacity. An oversight on my part. Got a few of these alternative methods to share? I’m all for a better idea to work in, should we really need more infection treatments. Last few times I’ve played this week, my chance of recovering without treatment seems significantly improved. So I raise the question: is the addition of more wound treatment methods out of desire for realism, or a gameplay need?

[SpadeDraco]

Got a few of these alternative methods to share? I’m all for a better idea to work in, should we really need more infection treatments.

Of course good sir. I wouldn’t gripe about it if I didn’t have some sort of solution in mind. Using a syringe to drain the wound. Using a sterilized knife to debride the wound in a similar but more effective manner than cauterization. A penicillin injection. Anti-microbial sponges. Good old soap and water. Topical antibiotics. Removal of the affected limb (if this produces even one funny noob story about someone accidentally beheading themselves it will be completely worth it).

[Coolthulhu]

No offense, but this seems insane. Like, literally insane… Especially Coolthulu’s rendition that involves ripping a pulsing ootheca from the corpse of a mutant fly creature and smearing it’s babies all over yourself. Nobody in their right mind would do that. Ever. There are dozens of other more sensical ways of treating an infected wound that aren’t represented in the game.

Maggot therapy sounds insane, but it works. Not as well as proper disinfection, but it’s better than medieval technology.
Adding mutant flies to that is just a game thing that would let us handwave problems associated with real flies being dirty carriers of disease.

And that part about people in right mind: that’s pure bullshit. People in right mind would not pick horrible death from gangrenous wound over something that is disgusting but safe.
There are cases of people with frostbite cutting off their fingers, people with infected parts of body cutting out skin and fat to get rid of infection, voluntary infections with tapeworms just to lose some body fat and look better (tapeworms at one point in their life cycle can travel to random organs and form nodules there) etc.
Then there is traditional Korean medicine using literal shit as medicine (even though there is no scientific basis to support that).

We’re not talking about squeamish city dweller here, but possibly a hardened survivor who eats mutant flies and cockroaches and has a gangrenous wound caused by the bite of a mutated, rotting corpse.

I’m not insisting on adding a new method of wound disinfection, since we have enough of those and it’s easy enough already, but saying that a hardened survivor would be too squeamish to save his life is at the very best pure ignorance.

[User_6]

Then there is traditional Korean medicine using literal shit as medicine (even though there is no scientific basis to support that).

Well, monkeys sometimes eat their feces so obviously there is an evolutionary advantage in doing that. Maybe because gut bacteria helps process vitamin b12 or whatever.

[SpadeDraco]

I’m not insisting on adding a new method of wound disinfection, since we have enough of those and it’s easy enough already, but saying that a hardened survivor would be too squeamish to save his life is at the very best pure ignorance.

It has nothing to do with squeamishness and everything to do with the fact that it wouldn’t work. And ignorant? Really? Are you saying that you’re omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation? Maggot therapy is a specialized treatment for very specific types of wounds that uses (and contrary to popular belief this has been the case throughout history as well) specially bred medical maggots. And the examples you gave completely prove my point. People who slice off infected limbs and tissue are using sound logic and reasoning to solve the problem. People who drink poop liqueur because they think it will fix all of their medical problems are delusional. People who infect themselves with a dangerous parasite because they think it’s a better idea than going for a fucking bike-ride are delusional.

People who would kill a possibly radioactive giant animal that is almost surely completely genetically different from the thing that it evolved from and rub it’s babies all over an infected wound under the assumption that they will behave exactly like other maggots (which is a planet sized assumption) are delusional. Even if all of these completely baseless assumptions turned out to be accurate it would still be an idiotic idea because a “hardened survivor” as you describe would most likely have the equipment and knowledge to debride the wound in a more reliable, effective, and SANE (this IS the correct word in this situation) way. It doesn’t require much, just a sharp blade, some rags, and the ability to boil water.

[Pthalocy]

This is all a moot point, as C:DDA allows for enough role play that hardened cataclysm warriors are just as plausible to occur as squishy citydwellers. Whether or not said survivor is in the “right mind” when deciding whether or not gangrene beats having maggots in their leg is also kind of up for grabs depending on their situation and what the player’s concerns include.

If I were a survivor and found myself with no means to sanitize, no means to debride due to unsanitary weapons, no means to get back home to my supply - maybe I’d start considering the risk of hoping giant mutated fly larva still act like pre-cata fly larva. Desperation is a hell of a motivator, and not necessarily the most logical, nor completely devoid of it.

Anyway of the ideas spadedraco listed, the most valuable one to me was “Good old soap and water”, as …Honestly, do we use soap for much? Shaving kits? I know it was implemented for that filthy clothes PR that got really negative reviews, and … not much else comes to mind, cuz I’m not about to eat the soap. I’m for giving meaningful purpose to already-included items that do little. Maybe soap and water would only be effective for a very short time period after the infection stat is noted? You would still need harsher methods further down the line should it be neglected for any amount of time, so soap wouldn’t become a cheap magical cure to injury unless you literally have it right on-hand. Thoughts on balance issues?

[TheFlame52]

BACK ON TOPIC, I have noticed that things have been slowly getting nerfed for years, not just six months. As an example, MMR. He use to be able to explode brutes with a single punch. Then he could explode zombies with a punch. Then he could explode zombies with a pistol whip. Then he could explode zombies with a single sword slash. Now he can only do that to basic zombies and a few variants, and with zombie evolution, there aren’t many of those around. Granted, I’m playing with PK’s rebalancing, which makes things much harder, but still. Nerfs keep happening, they’re going to keep happening, and I don’t like it one bit.

[Shopkeeper]

[spoiler][quote=“SpadeDraco, post:376, topic:12504”][quote=“Coolthulhu, post:374, topic:12504”]I’m not insisting on adding a new method of wound disinfection, since we have enough of those and it’s easy enough already, but saying that a hardened survivor would be too squeamish to save his life is at the very best pure ignorance.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with squeamishness and everything to do with the fact that it wouldn’t work. And ignorant? Really? Are you saying that you’re omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation? Maggot therapy is a specialized treatment for very specific types of wounds that uses (and contrary to popular belief this has been the case throughout history as well) specially bred medical maggots. And the examples you gave completely prove my point. People who slice off infected limbs and tissue are using sound logic and reasoning to solve the problem. People who drink poop liqueur because they think it will fix all of their medical problems are delusional. People who infect themselves with a dangerous parasite because they think it’s a better idea than going for a fucking bike-ride are delusional.

People who would kill a possibly radioactive giant animal that is almost surely completely genetically different from the thing that it evolved from and rub it’s babies all over an infected wound under the assumption that they will behave exactly like other maggots (which is a planet sized assumption) are delusional. Even if all of these completely baseless assumptions turned out to be accurate it would still be an idiotic idea because a “hardened survivor” as you describe would most likely have the equipment and knowledge to debride the wound in a more reliable, effective, and SANE (this IS the correct word in this situation) way. It doesn’t require much, just a sharp blade, some rags, and the ability to boil water.[/quote][/spoiler]

The maggot treatment for an infection sounds like a perfectly acceptable case for compromise by ‘gameism’ mechanic.

BACK ON TOPIC, I have noticed that things have been slowly getting nerfed for years, not just six months. As an example, MMR. He use to be able to explode brutes with a single punch. Then he could explode zombies with a punch. Then he could explode zombies with a pistol whip. Then he could explode zombies with a single sword slash. Now he can only do that to basic zombies and a few variants, and with zombie evolution, there aren’t many of those around. Granted, I’m playing with PK’s rebalancing, which makes things much harder, but still. Nerfs keep happening, they’re going to keep happening, and I don’t like it one bit.

Is Marloss Man the same singular survivor or has he been remade a couple times? I played Valerie Irving across several lives due to game breaking bugs from pre-0.C to the most recent experimentals. In her first incarnation she was able to pulp Hulks at 15/15/15/15 thanks to 30+ melee/cutting and a katana. Then they fixed scaling to be more sane based on a ten point system. I could still pulp most things once I discovered niten-ichi ryu and diamond coated a katana. But then they rebalanced niten to be less of an instant “I win” style.

I think those things were less nerfs and more bringing characters down to a sane powerlevel from being potential demigods. Besides isn’t Marloss Man a product of granada abuse anyway?

[Coolthulhu]

Are you saying that you’re omnipotent and know exactly how any given person will react in any given situation?

No, YOU are saying that.