Before change welding googles required “tailoring” 4 to craft. Now it require “mechanics” 3, almost just like crude welder.
The whole points of change were:
Welding googles is used for welding, that is related to mechanics. Is not related to tailoring directly
Player need to invest heavily in tailoring to craft welding goggles but at the same time in mechanincs to craft crude welder. But both of this items actually related to the same things - welding and mechanins
goggles_nv at the same time require real profile skill: “electronics” that is logical
Welding googles recepie looks like hand made improvisation (ductaping any google and covering it with spray) but not like something that require tailoring
Car repair with ductape is heavily nerfed now. So if player have no access to “true” welder then the only option to proper repair - is crude welder. But it is unusable without welding googles.
But current version not ideal either. Please answer the poll. Any suggestions with posts will be appreciated.
Different skill levels are not linearly difficult. They make sense within their own line of progression, not outside.
Using tailoring for what is not, fundamentally, a piece of clothing, is wrong, that much I agree with.
However tying Mechanics into making welding goggles, is just as wrong - there is nothing even remotely mechanical about them. You can’t just tie welding goggles to a crude welder by required skill.
In that sense, fabrication is definitely the way to go for crafting the goggles.
Now for autolearn, yes, you could make a case for the mechanics skill. Even then, though, I see fabrication being just as likely a candidate.
And once you’ve arrived at the skill you’re targeting, you need to look at what items are craftable at what level within that skill. The mechanics level needed to craft the crude welder has no relation to the complexity of the goggles. Swimming goggles, the sort that require a bit more effort to stay watertight, require Fabrication 4, in a recipe with a similar premise (convert a different kind of goggles). With that in mind, Fabrication 3 seems fair.
So I’ll cast that as my vote, then. Fabrication 3. It makes sense in general, and you do learn the recipe from a book on Fabrication.
I don’t have a git account, but I’d like to mention that I find it harder to get my mechanics skill up than my fabrication skill. So saying that fabrication skill 3 makes it more difficult to repair cars doesn’t make a lot of sense, considering you need to secure a bunch of tools before you can even begin to work on increasing your mechanics skill.
The poll was useful as a way to find the people most aggravated by the change.[/quote]
It’s a very small sample size (11 replies) over a small period of time (4 days with most votes within first 24 hours). The welder and the goggles are functionally a set. Requiring additional skills above the makeshift welder will upset a different group of players for no immediately apparent gain. We have a lot of players on reddit that I know don’t post here so that is an important consideration.
A lot of the recipes/repair requirement code is currently in flux so this would be a good poll to leave open to see what further results and/or suggestions it yields.
I vote for fabrication 0, because fabrication 3 is not high enough to matter and too high to represent spraying paint on goggles.
Welding goggles were always locked by the spray can requirement anyway.
It will not “upset” anyone. Prior to the PR that switched requirements to Mechanics 3, which only happened a few days ago, the requirement was Tailoring 4. Tailoring is much further off the “car repair” track than Fabrication, and Fab 2 or 3 is trivial to obtain. Those people you mentioned, on the overall, will be quite pleased by the change.
And please keep in mind that the goggles are useful not only to mechanics.
[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:11, topic:12672”]I vote for fabrication 0, because fabrication 3 is not high enough to matter and too high to represent spraying paint on goggles.
Welding goggles were always locked by the spray can requirement anyway.[/quote]
While I’m not principally against that, Fab 0 is the level at which you bend nails to practice. Fab 3 is the level it probably deserves since the process is more involved than just spraypainting goggles, but I’m okay with 1 or 2 if it still “feels” too high. Regardless of what the recipe is locked by, I still prefer if it keeps a smidgen of sense to it. Most of the current recipe clustering for Fabrication is probably caused by this askew view of the skill. It could use a revision.
Recipe rebalancing could be an interesting topic for further discussion, especially for fabrication in general.[/quote]Probably best looked at as part of a more broad restructuring of crafting and construction. Maybe even a reconfiguration of crafting as a whole.
Right now every task relies on just one skill, with additional skills possible to tack on as requirements. In reality a lot of items are composites of various bits and bobs, especially large-scale ones like the stuff that goes into construction and vehicle work. Why wouldn’t a system work where an item could have multiple, equally important, and equally used skill requirements?
I mean, for instance. Some items currently use Tailoring as their primary skill because the result is some kind of armor. There may be other requirements, but whatever the outcome the worked and trained skill is exclusively Tailoring - regardless of whether the part has mechanical parts that could train Mechanics, wiring and gadgets that could train Electronics, or other complex work that would train Fabrication.
Then there’s the possible split into Fabrication and Mechanics tasks for vehicle work, allowing characters not to focus into Mechanics heavily just to perform something like trivial upgrades or repairs. Weld a frame together, repair the quarterpanels, mount some spikes, armor up the headlights - all of those things can be done without mechanical knowledge. Salvaging similar pieces, likewise, should not require it. I think that, with Fabrication being easier to train than Mechanics, most people should theoretically be alright with such a change. It is, of course, not so simple (because it makes training Mechanics harder), but I do believe that is also solvable. Just needs some thought.
(…I’m going to have to download the repo again, aren’t I…)
Be careful - overly expansive plans fall by the wayside. Try and work with what we have and propose a collective set of changes rather than trying to design new game mechanics
[quote=“mugling, post:15, topic:12672”]Be careful - overly expansive plans fall by the wayside. Try and work with what we have and propose a collective set of changes rather than trying to design new game mechanics[/quote]I haven’t even gotten to the new mechanics plans yet.
The change would likely be gradual, beginning with a framework for using multiple skills, and advancing existing items to that over several passes.
The thing with vehicle work would mostly require the ability to define a particular skill for the task rather than defaulting to mechanics, and displaying that in the interface. Again, starting with the framework and then advancing and working out things over time. (maybe throw in a Construction-like ability to “upgrade” vehicle parts somewhere in there)
Just needs someone to start doing it, pretty much. >_>
“New mechanics” would be the DF-esque drivetrain system for vehicles that I envisioned, with full ability to switch it in and out via mods. Can’t even begin to fathom how it would look in code, of course. But the concept is there. Something something frame-within-a-frame. Should probably not clog the thread with it now.
And still, back to the thread’s original purpose. Fabrication 2. You can get most of the way there from just crafting starting stuff in the shelter. Basically barely a requirement. You’ll probably be there by the time you’ve found a welder. You’ll definitely be there by the time you find the required components for welding goggles. It’s not going to affect Mechanics users who work on their cars, especially with how it’s a change from Tailoring 4, and it is perfect for non-Mechanics crafting people. Let’s change the recipe to that. Third time’s the charm.
This is no longer true for vehicle part installation, repair, removal and fault mending[/quote]Well, that’s already good then. Just need to make sure the individual parts’ skill requirements make sense. Which they also might? I haven’t looked at that part of the game for some time. I think the last build I have is… 5413? Being stuck on mobile internet sort of sucks. >_>
I think the biggest part of mechanics is just simply going from mechanics 1 to 2. Getting to 1 is trivial as it can be done with simple prying but getting it to 2 is a chore as everything with cars is 2+ with the exception of removing batteries. Unless you have a soldering iron going from 1 to 2 is terrible, unless I’m missing something completely that allows you to skill up in it without that tool.
I think the biggest part of mechanics is just simply going from mechanics 1 to 2. Getting to 1 is trivial as it can be done with simple prying but getting it to 2 is a chore as everything with cars is 2+ with the exception of removing batteries. Unless you have a soldering iron going from 1 to 2 is terrible, unless I'm missing something completely that allows you to skill up in it without that tool.
I think fab 3 is a good compromise.
Well without mechanics 2 you don’t get crude welder after all. If you can scavenge normal welder than most likely you can scavenge welding googles. It can’t be guaranteed of course.
