Stats verses Skills (with a side of Stamina)

[crazykiddeath]

or Why we need a way to increase physical stats and stamina in game.

This is more to do with single pool character creation but I think applies at least somewhat all around. As it curremtly stands, outside of very niche scenarios, there isn’t much reason to take skills at character creation. Every skill can be raised from 0 upward though various means, books, grinding etc, what we don’t have is a way to naturally increase stats. There is the stats through skills mod but that ties in directly with the skill process anyway and kind of defeats the point, raising/taking skills with that is taking stats.
The game is based on realism and it is entirely realistic that a character under physically demanding situations will improve with time, running/swimming a lot will make you fitter and faster, work that requires stength will make you stronger, being well practiced at being alert and observant will make you sharper etc.

This could also be argued in terms of stamina, though its a slightly different situation. Currently stamina is tied directly to traits, largely fixed at character creation with no natural way of increasing it. This
doesn’t really reflect reality, (most) people aren’t born with the innate ability to run a marathon or go twenty rounds in a boxing ring. It’s something developed over time with training.

I think a system to modestly increase your stats and untying stamina from traits could be a good fit for the game while also opening up new possiblities for starting traits.

[Rot]

Always wanted to install exercise machines and punching bags to train strength and dexterity. Maybe after months of rigorous life in the cataclysm you’d improve your stats.

Though, i’m guessing there should be a human limit to what you can do. +5 to all stats sounds reasonable, can’t have you train for years and have an insane 50+ to all your stats. Maxed out at 20 maybe, for balance reasons.

Maybe getting mutations like extremely strong and those similar would enhance this limit you have, since you’re mutated and gone past human limits.

[crazykiddeath]

From what I understand 8 is average and 18 is olympic level so I’d say even 20 max might be too much but I could be remembering wrong.

[Rot]

People at the olympics (talking about gold medalists) are pretty much at what we can consider the human limit. That is, athletes train specifically to get good at ONE activity, and reach that limit.
20 sounds pretty reasonable for training. You could always add things like steroids or somesuch to make your progress faster, you know.

[anothersimulacrum]

14 is olympic level.

[crazykiddeath]

@Rot
That’s sort of a contradiction, they are world class specialised in one area but a regular person can out do them? I do see where you are coming from though. Olympic level is a bit vague, it gets even muddier when you take triathlon events into account.
@anothersimulacrum
World class is a bit vague (not that olympic level is much better) but as an example, where on that strength scale would an olympic power lifter and a worlds strongest man contestent be?

[Ragno]

what about something like the “stat through kills” mod, but instead of just generic kills, something like, if you get certain amount of kills of a categorized monster (like strong monster, fast etc.) you get bonus on that stat

[crazykiddeath]

I think that could (and possibly should) be part of it but it shouldn’t be the only thing, time spent walking/running/swimming could be part of it. Time spent doing construction, mechanics, etc.

There was a discussion recently about how valuable various stats were recently and how certain stats give more benefit then others, one of the ideas I had since then for perception would be tying it to observation.
Basically you’d have your view range as it is currently but details about enemies (and maybe items) would be obscured by distance, the less perception and time spent observing, the closer you’d have to get before you would get more then the basic enemy type. All hulks would look the same, all brutes, all child zombies, all basic zombies etc until you get close enough to be able to “perceive” the difference.
I think a system like this could also be tied in with increasing perception over time.

[Rot]

I’m saying, if you, a survivor, managed to train long and hard enough to get a stat to 20, yes. You are at an olympic level.
So what you’re saying is yeah, a regular joe can become an Olympian, only after immense work to get to 20.
Steroids break your body’s limit on acquiring muscle mass. Never will you ever hit a “plateau” in your training that you can achieve in bodybuilding or powerlifting.
Same goes for endurance sports and sprinting.

[crazykiddeath]

16 is world class according to: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/blob/dc3475c7b9b81e8305161a661cc7e36dd0179e16/doc/GAME_BALANCE.md
really it depends on what “world class” means, it’s why I’m wondering where power lifters and worlds strongest men contestents come on that scale.

[Stone]

Steroids make you big, not strong, strength comes from your central nervous system, getting stronger means training your body and mind into believing it’s not going to break itself moving that weight, it’s the difference between body builders, and power lifters.

[JayThirtySeven]

Can we get a reference on “strength comes from your central nervous system” …? Doesn’t sound quite right to me. Muscle mass is definitely a factor in how much force you can apply.

[Stone]

https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-basics-of-training-for-size-or-strength.html athlean x, scottherminfitness and a couple other fitness channels say this too.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170710091652.htm found this as well.

[TheMurderUnicorn]

This is a silly argument. If you just took steroids and never did physical work, yeah, you’d probably be right.

But no one does that. And you’re talking about body builders – maybe even just supremely fit people – they get there by putting in the work in ADDITION to maybe utilizing steroids and getting their head right.

No one gets physically massive without tons of physical work. Whether they can get past a mental block or not, the amount of labor they’ve done, utilizing those muscles, is what makes them strong. Not a mental state or drug chemistry.

[Ragno]

That comes from the fact along the lines of having the best weapon but if you dont know how to turn it on to use it it isnt that good, same with the muscle, its said that if you use those electrical apparatus to make exercises (like the ones that makes you have abs while sitting and such) since the kind of come from “nowhere” for the brain, it doesnt know how to fully use it like if you did it the normal way. Or maybe about it goes along the lines of technique, and the best way to use the muscle.
But thats way offtopic sorry.

[JayThirtySeven]

I don’t think it’s controversial to say that in general you get “stronger” by gaining more muscle mass. The linked articles seem to indicate that all strength training adds mass which improves strength, but that certain types of training can add lots of extra mass without a proportional increase in strength (and they attribute this to the nervous system being under-developed compared to the muscles). I don’t see anything suggesting that you can get significant strength increases without gaining muscle mass.

[Ragno]

ohhh ok, i think my early post has nothing to do with this new info xD. I mean how can someone develop the nervous system, i mean i know you can train it in aspect like coordination and reaction etc., but thats more like using its latent potential, not building more, like in the case of muscular mass.

Back on topic, maybe adding a hidden stat that keeps track of the turns spended on doing something and the increase the linked stat, like running/throwing things dex, crafting/reading/building/dissasembling gives something to dex, int or str, based on how involved is the stat on certain activity

[crazykiddeath]

I think that might be a good way to do it.

[BushElito]

I think there could be a serum that allows training over the x-limit to level 20, but only one type of attribute. So if you used a strength serum, only strength can reach level 20.

Also, the closer you are to level 20, the harsher the penalty when you choose a different attribute serum.

[crazykiddeath]

Bit outside of what I had in mind here, what I’d like for this would be a natural progression for stat increases.