Static Spawn is Terrible

Game Talk The Bunker
81

Yes, but zombie hordes on the very most outskirts is ridiculous. It needs to get nerfed.[/quote]

On the contrary. There’s basically never zombies on the outskirts. You can sleep in the outermost houses of medium-large towns, and never get disturbed.

I usually have to go at least 2 map squares in to start meeting stuff in a town.

There needs to be more stuff in the outskirts, not less (although, yes, some gradation of specials from less>more, outer>inner would be cool)[/quote]
This sort of interpretation problem is why I asked for maps. Two map squares, by my understanding, is one house and the street. Not much to salvage if crossing the street puts me in LOS to a zed, who pulls more with xyr, etc.

Recently (in one of the 0.2 versions, I think), I thought I was on the “outskirts” by being outside the outer rim of the city*, albeit 5-7 buildings or so south of the northernmost building. Imagine my surprise when I saw an M in the street. (This was day 2, about 1700 or so.)

*No buildings to the east; I was traveling south along the eastern side, having begun orbiting the town at the NE corner. Going farther east ran me into fungaloids, with no spire visible on-map, but I think that’s been reported & fixed already.

Different towns are differently sized, OK, fine. Tough to tell what scale of town I’m looking at without a Lab-downloaded map or a few hours reconnoitering with Binoculars. Neither is the sort of thing I’d like to do to determine whether I can haz starting gear.

To preempt the “hide in the woods and throw spears” crowd: A wooden spear is a cooking implement once I have the integrated toolset and solar panels. (If I had an NPC squad, I might issue them as stopgap weapons, but then we’re talking 3-4 spear-users, not one.) Starting requires a crowbar, along with at least two of army pants, helmet, or fitted trenchcoat. And then I have to like the starting map–have a semipermanent camp visible for the first few days, at least.

My current understanding of static spawn is that I’m supposed to put in at least 2-4 hours of wall-clock time (figure a day or two of character time with less-useful point placement), whether through grinding or through fancy inventory work, to get the same stuff I can get in dynamic spawn with some well-aimed scrounging, and the promise that once I get back to my usual damage-output, that I can clear the town faster.

Basically, static spawn requires more work at character startup, for an alleged benefit that I haven’t encountered.

82

Err… crowbars are craftable.

And getting a Master by itself doesn’t seem like a big deal? They are kind of pushovers, combat-wise.

As to your refusal to use an effective weapon for anything but cooking… uh… yeah. Generally ignoring effective is a bad strategy? As is requiring certain items and a certain map and… well… honestly I just don’t really understand what you’re complaining about?

83

[quote=“KA101, post:81, topic:546”]This sort of interpretation problem is why I asked for maps. Two map squares, by my understanding, is one house and the street. Not much to salvage if crossing the street puts me in LOS to a zed, who pulls more with xyr, etc.

Recently (in one of the 0.2 versions, I think), I thought I was on the “outskirts” by being outside the outer rim of the city*, albeit 5-7 buildings or so south of the northernmost building. Imagine my surprise when I saw an M in the street. (This was day 2, about 1700 or so.)

*No buildings to the east; I was traveling south along the eastern side, having begun orbiting the town at the NE corner. Going farther east ran me into fungaloids, with no spire visible on-map, but I think that’s been reported & fixed already.

Different towns are differently sized, OK, fine. Tough to tell what scale of town I’m looking at without a Lab-downloaded map or a few hours reconnoitering with Binoculars. Neither is the sort of thing I’d like to do to determine whether I can haz starting gear.

To preempt the “hide in the woods and throw spears” crowd: A wooden spear is a cooking implement once I have the integrated toolset and solar panels. (If I had an NPC squad, I might issue them as stopgap weapons, but then we’re talking 3-4 spear-users, not one.) Starting requires a crowbar, along with at least two of army pants, helmet, or fitted trenchcoat. And then I have to like the starting map–have a semipermanent camp visible for the first few days, at least.

My current understanding of static spawn is that I’m supposed to put in at least 2-4 hours of wall-clock time (figure a day or two of character time with less-useful point placement), whether through grinding or through fancy inventory work, to get the same stuff I can get in dynamic spawn with some well-aimed scrounging, and the promise that once I get back to my usual damage-output, that I can clear the town faster.

Basically, static spawn requires more work at character startup, for an alleged benefit that I haven’t encountered.[/quote]

not to be mean but it sounds like you are being too selective. Starting out a nail board will do fine(from my experience) Most times you can find a rock right outside the shelter, so grab it smash some lockers and benches and make you a crowbar and nailboard. The search the basement and ask the npc for gear. Then sneak out to the nearest houses not surrounded by stores and such.

In my current game theres a row of 5 houses close to the evac shelter but away from town and I’ve been hopping from house to house looting sleeping and etc. Sure i may have a lone cougar stare at me through the window but so far no zeds. there’s on more house left to loot then I’ll ransack the lonely mansion surrounded by forest before I make my way into the stores at towns edge.

84

As I said elsewhere, it’s late. 3:30 AM as I’m proofing this.

Crafting a crowbar requires Mechanics 1, which requires either a character point (hence, my complaint about diverting points to skills) or finding a book.

Masters aren’t spun as pushovers, and I can’t guarantee that it didn’t have friends where I couldn’t see them. Want me to walk up to it and find out? (My 02 Feb high-end character has yet to encounter one, despite having gone three seasons and entered a town in the daylight. Necros are fairly common, rarely cops, and generally low-level specials mixed with standards.)

Wooden spear could be nice if I liked Piercing. But then that’s not a skill I plan on using long-term, so insisting that I use it gets into grind-territory.

I ask for maps because people are claiming that it’s easy to avoid zeds so long as one sticks to the outskirts of town. It’s not clear to me where these outskirts are. Thus, I asked for the outskirt-promoters to show us naysayers: if the technique of remaining-on-the-outskirts is reliable, that ought to be a simple enough request. Benedict kindly provided a map, and that did help.

My complaint has been–and remains–that this change devalues quite a bit of existing playstyles and advice, requires more work on the part of the player, and does not appear to be adding significant new content. What new content is emerging is inferior ways to accomplish the same goals.

For example, rather than fighting zeds with a combat knife and feeling that though I might not be good at fighting (yet), I’ve at least got a good weapon…I’m supposed to enjoy fighting them with a sharpened stick. Instead of finding a shovel, I’m supposed to scrape & scrounge to find parts and grind skill to make an improvised shovel. Both of those may work, in that zeds die and pits are dug; but they’re less valuable than what we’re used to having, they take more player-effort to use effectively, and they invalidate the existing documentation & strategies.

Basically, the game is more challenging not because the devs are adding new & challenging content, but because the devs are demanding that we make do with worse gear and less of it.

85

map of my current game. the area outlined in pink is what I consider outskirts. You could possibly sneak into the pawnshop but right now I’m going to hold off. there’s a section of road filled with traps I’m going to disarm then a few more houses.

The town might not start past the pawn shop but i have a hunch it will only way to find out is to scout it out, but just from the first few houses I have enough food, crossbow(with ammo), nailboard, digging stick, several spears , and ok clothing(hopefully the clothing situation will get better when I check the other houses.) and so far no zeds. cougars several cougars but with some maneuvering I was able to take them all with nailboard or crossbow.

86

This is my first post on the forums, so I’m sorry if I’m sub-standard here. The truth is that I started playing this just yesterday and I don’t know anything of previous versions.

Personally, I jumped in right away with static spawns, after 2-3 deaths I got the hang of it, avoided centres and scavenged the outskirts of cities as I mainly ran along the roads searching for crashsites or corpses. Honestly, I don’t see how static spawns are that big of a deal. I’ve ran into hordes before, but as you are usually in the middle of town, sprinting around buildings to loose them is quite easy. (Atleast if you are Fleet-footed and Quick)

I might have the Dwarf Fortress mentality of Losing = Fun but I really like running facefirst into hordes or things I’ve never heard about before.

-Although-, I did just try run a game with dynamic spawns and found it way harder. I could no longer peek along buildings and feel somewhat safe as things kept spawning just behind my back.

Also, if a stealth system is to be implimented, I hope it’s more than just a stealth skill like in Dwarf Fortress where you can stand next to someone, “stealthed” and stab them over and over again.

Atm I stealth pretty well in the way that I peek around buildings, lure some of them into traps etc. I don’t know what you guys are expecting but that’s great imho.

PS: Thanks for the game, lovin’ it.

87

Everything behind that blue line was outskirts (ignore the one going off to the right. That’s the town centre, I put the line in the wrong place.)

As it turned out, that was a particularly good town, because there were about another ten houses up north that were also completely Z free, but it’s rare that there’ll be fewer than 5 houses to loot from any given side of town, before you even start meeting Zs.

I don’t know how you’ve been having so much trouble, or feel you’ve been “investing” in characters to find basic gear, but you really shouldn’t be.

You really don’t need to engage in combat at all, unless you’re particularly keen on finding guns (in which case, sorry, you will either need to get lucky with drops, or go for the long-haul, but that’s sort of fair enough, given how powerful guns are!)

88

KA, do you start your game in the late afternoon so you can rest for some xp? do you take night-vision? do you really not take a blocking stick with you? i’m not getting what’s wrong, with the new shortsighted monsters its a cakewalk. do you play df?

89

I wanted to give this conversation a week and myself some more time to get acquainted with static spawns before continuing to post. It’s weird to see how this conversation has progressed since I’ve been gone, but at least it’s remaining civil.

My time spent just playing the game and not talking about it has adjusted some of my perceptions. Basically:

  1. Cities are completely different. What they mean to the player in terms of challenge, reward, and how you approach them is entirely different now.
  2. The point of the game is different. You can actually “win” now, clearing out and area completely and permanently securing it.
  3. The challenge is…different. Much more emphasis on combat, but it can be “gamed” just like dynamic spawns were.
  4. The challenge is…the same. Once you’ve got that rhythm down it’s just a matter of time and luck. You roll the dice and hope you find what you need or else you get bit, get infected, and die.

I don’t think “Static Spawns are Terrible” anymore, but I do think they change the game so drastically it’s not “Cataclysm” anymore, but that’s exactly why the devs have been talking about breaking off and doing their own thing. This is that thing. It is not a bad game, but it is so drastically different it deserves to be called it’s own thing. And it is! This is Dark Days Ahead.

From my original points I still want to dredge up/reassemble that:

  1. There still exist somewhat “dead starts”. You can be screwed out of absolutely everything to start, and wander into town only to find houses filled with nothing you need outside of maybe some food and maybe some water. It’s the nature of the Cataclysm beast, but it’s something that’s still pretty specific to Cataclysm in roguelikes. Most games give you enough choices to ensure you have at least the stuff you need to make a good start, and from there you are on your own. Dark Days Ahead does not do that anymore, with the way cities are taken off the table.

  2. The outskirts are still too barren. There needs to be more stuff to do outside of the city to keep the game interesting. All my playthroughs on Static Spawn are looking disappointingly similar. The most variety I get is whether I want to archery/survival or just dodge/unarmed + a martial art. There needs to be more resources available to a player in the beginning so that starting out with a skill like firearms/shotguns might make more sense…because you are more likely to be able to find a farm and a shotgun before the shit hits the fan.

Otherwise I have more hope now for the direction the game is going. I still hope they include dynamic spawns in as an option, if for nothing more than nostalgia, because it’s an big option and having more of them is almost always better.

90

Losing != Fun here. Losing = time wasted. I read the briefing material and don’t enjoy the idea of smashing my shelter. (Personal concept of a 2x4 is not something I’d want as a weapon, nails or no. Too large/wide.)

If there’s a game-start time option, I missed it. NV & light step, among others. Usually a martial art.

Zed vision range isn’t always apparent.

91

I’d like to vote for static spawn.

I didn’t mind Dynamic Spawns when I played older versions, but now that they’re gone, I wouldn’t want them back. Teleporting zombies ruin a lot of plans or tactics the player might come up with. You can’t plan a good escape route because they can spawn in behind you. You can’t make any noise, even on an empty street, because it will summon more enemies. God forbid you start a car-- dozens of zombies will appear from the ether. But you have until 9:30 to loot with impunity. That’s just weird and artificial. I much prefer Static Spawns that I can see and react to appropriately, even if running away is the most appropriate action.

92

[quote=“KA101, post:90, topic:546”]Losing != Fun here. Losing = time wasted. I read the briefing material and don’t enjoy the idea of smashing my shelter. (Personal concept of a 2x4 is not something I’d want as a weapon, nails or no. Too large/wide.)

If there’s a game-start time option, I missed it. NV & light step, among others. Usually a martial art.

Zed vision range isn’t always apparent.[/quote]

Ka, agreed. still, i seem to be on the other end of it. i’m using fewer and fewer points at startup now to restore some sense of surprise and challenge. I wound up settling on a map that had a gazillion worms on my side of town and greatly enjoyed that part of the game; but it was more or less over once by the time i had found my car. i had a good 90mins of fun to clear a path to the gas-station but i’ve made so many arrows now that almost everything dies in a hit or two, or if not that, forgive me, to my spear. its like the zombie part of the game is now just prelude (to what awaits, i’m not sure). i don’t know if its me having gotten the hang of it or that watching the scene with a 60x50 viewport made it all too easy. i’m even refraining from rock throwing completely. :frowning:

I think if you start with everything at 11 and 12 points in positives there’s no way that you will have a problem. push it to 10 12 12 10 and you won’t even be ueber to fast. I suspect it might be that i gave up quick for fast healer, which is a completely amazing perk that has given me the greatest boost. I figured I had to try that now that bandages have a more reasonable cost to them. And it works really well. You just go to sleep and you wake up healthy from just about any damage. Take your vitamins, have some antobiotics… i don’t think i bandaged more than a few times since going all dex.

I forget the sequence, but I didn’t destroy my shelter at all. I don’t take skill so i must have found something good in the beginning. I remember what a pita it was to not have a backpack but I’d found cargo pants early and just took my time with everything, wore all the stuff i had and played with the worms until i had dogde around 7. it took me till today to find a 2nd rucksack, right now i’m debating if i should kill everyone in town with the car or level up firearms/bow and piercing some more.

As for starting, yeah, there’s a startup time. I set it to 17:00 so i could gather 2hrs worth of wait time before going out. I moved into the first house on the block and have only been to the shelter to read and finish off the worms. I aquired over 150 ant eggs with just a few fights and have a brazier stacked with 26 logs in the corner of my main room there. I like the simple diet and I only used the mp3 player so i could craft in the rain. Getting enough sleep might really be the secret here. That, and never doing anything without XP in the pool. That actually works well now that making water is finally so straight-forward.

Did you see my post about making a big and a normal view-port? If not, work it out. make one that’s easy on the eyes and another one that lets you see a radius of 50…60. then you can see the Z’s idle during the day. They are just stoopidly standing around and you can choose whatever crazyness you want to do with plenty of info. You need to have the normal roguelike tactics down standing behind the doors, whacking them when they are slow, use pits and minefields against them etc. Pits are almost the best thing ever. Can’t believe it took me so long to make them. You can even prep something in-town at night, then show up during the day and have them come to murder themselves. … its still a lot of fun when you don’t use their lack of intelligence against them though.

and again, yes, your vision completely outranges theirs now. start late, hang out, have some berries, cut a blocking stick and bring a rock, find some vitamins and cargo pants and play it slow till the juice turns bad. you should really be in great shape by then. just don’t fight anything. if you find an axe or a shovel you’ve already won. and heck, you can even make them now. seriously, use a shovel to make a few secure spots around the shelter and around the houses in the neighborhood and you can drag anything that interrupts your looting there.

just take your time, the law that says your confidence will kill you still applies here. cheers! p.s. blocking with a spear seems to count as bashing even when you dont use it to pierce. so you an safely carry one, not only does it look much better than a 2x4, noone will ever know :wink:

93

Fair enough. I like losing, but hey, guess what? Losing isn’t obligatory in Cata like it can sometimes be in DF.

I read the briefing material and don't enjoy the idea of smashing my shelter. (Personal concept of a 2x4 is not something I'd want as a weapon, nails or no. Too large/wide.)

Sorry, but some of your answers to legitimate strategies seem to be “I don’t like that idea.” That’s not a valid response. That’s a random opinion, with no justification, or reason why anyone but you should be willing to incorporate it into their game plan.

And, as Glyphgryph said before, it sounds like a lot of your objections basically boil down to “I think that idea is unappealing” on an aesthetic level. “I don’t like spears.” “I don’t like 2x4s” Why are you randomly rejecting valid strategies?

94

I’d rather have a 2x4 then bare hands.

Also spears R 4 Supr L33t Ppl

Bows are my best friend.

95

Static spawning is great. Feels way more natural than dynamic did. There should be lower risk/reward areas to explore outside of cities - that’s just a matter of adding more content (which the static-spawning-detractors are free to do)

96

Fair enough. I like losing, but hey, guess what? Losing isn’t obligatory in Cata like it can sometimes be in DF.

I read the briefing material and don't enjoy the idea of smashing my shelter. (Personal concept of a 2x4 is not something I'd want as a weapon, nails or no. Too large/wide.)

Sorry, but some of your answers to legitimate strategies seem to be “I don’t like that idea.” That’s not a valid response. That’s a random opinion, with no justification, or reason why anyone but you should be willing to incorporate it into their game plan.

And, as Glyphgryph said before, it sounds like a lot of your objections basically boil down to “I think that idea is unappealing” on an aesthetic level. “I don’t like spears.” “I don’t like 2x4s” Why are you randomly rejecting valid strategies?[/quote]
Hardly random, and I’ll try not to take that personally, seeing as I’ve been bending backwards to be civil.

Thought I was fairly clear: I don’t feel that the benefits of static spawn (cleared areas stay cleared) outweigh the cost (quality of gear available at start is hugely reduced), I liked being able to carry things, have a good fallback weapon, etc. Glad you seem to enjoy it, in any event.

97

[size=24pt]Static Spawn is a fucking option for a reason![/size]

Seriously, this whole threads main idea is derailed. It IS an option, so turn it off.

Much like other things: Think the wooden spear is OP? Don’t use it. Mutations bad to you? Avoid craters and mutagen.

Really if there is a single thing in the game you can’t not do post about it, don’t bitch, whine, and complain about things that are optional.

And Before You Jump Me! I don’t care about these arguments or whatnots in here, if you don’t like me/game aspects that are unavoidable then post a new forum thread. Don’t derail this one into one big cat fight. If you hate me then post in general discussion about it. Think 2x4s are Under/Over powered then post in suggestions.

I don’t blame you for being angry at each other or what other thing it is, but don’t drag shit in here on the forums. Go PM each other about strangling the other’s pets, just don’t bring shit here.

98

Are you sure, gtaguy? If I understood the devs correctly, they plan on making static spawn not only the default, but the non-optional norm. Dynamic spawn would be strictly one-off events, which removes much of its benefit.

Have fun.

99

Don’t swing that troll schtick at me.

This doesn’t need to be discussed here, take it elsewhere.

If you want to suggest static spawn remain an option then take it elsewhere.

Otherwise get back on topic.

100

[quote=“gtaguy, post:99, topic:546”]Don’t swing that troll schtick at me.

This doesn’t need to be discussed here, take it elsewhere.

If you want to suggest static spawn remain an option then take it elsewhere.

Otherwise get back on topic.[/quote]

You’re being obnoxious and terrible.