Very funny. :V
EDIT: I should point out that when I stated my opinion on the quality decline and its causes, I did not outright name names with regards to who has done so. I did quote Mugling in support of my reasoning for WHY my observations suggest a problem, but I recall saying contributors and developers were doing so. Perhaps that implies that I do consider him one example of a developer that does this, but that’s by no means the full intent of that statement.
Most of the counters to the “realism>game” argument are rooted in “if I wanted to live life I’d do it IRL”, which doesn’t really work when I want my game to be “life”[/quote]
That’s very sad.
Yeah, if I wanted a game to consume my real life, let it be Dwarf Fortress instead. o3o
Most of the counters to the “realism>game” argument are rooted in “if I wanted to live life I’d do it IRL”, which doesn’t really work when I want my game to be “life”[/quote]
That’s very sad.[/quote]
You’re misunderstanding him. Big times.
What he is trying to say is the following: I want to have a Game (in this case CDDA) to be realistic, like life, because I find it intruiging to see how different, impossible or at least nearly impossible situations would impact life, and how I would fare in those situations.
This seems to be, at least somewhat, what he is trying to say. He wants to have a game, which is basically similar to real life, but with 1 or 2 big differences, like cdda’s zombie outbreak, or fallout great war, which basically destroyed the life as we know it.
This falls into the same category as shows like ‘the living dead’ where it shows the life of survivors of a zombie apocalypse, or games like the Living dead, where you play the role of a survivor, not unlike in CDDA. Just with way better graphics.
There is nothing wrong with his statement, if we consider this. In fact, I have a similar opinion, I like more realism in games. Especially when it just…fits. One example from the ‘last few’ CDDA updates: The Vitamin/nutrition system that was added. It makes sense in my mind to actually add something like this to a Zombie game. Why? Because it would be actually ‘hard’ to find everything for a good diet. You won’t be able to just buy meat, fruits, vegetables, bread and other stuff to stay healthy, you have to scavenge or hunt for it, stuff that will put your character in danger. It connecty amazingly well to the Zombie-survival, if done well.
You’re misunderstanding him. Big times.
What he is trying to say is the following: I want to have a Game (in this case CDDA) to be realistic, like life, because I find it intruiging to see how different, impossible or at least nearly impossible situations would impact life, and how I would fare in those situations.
This seems to be, at least somewhat, what he is trying to say. He wants to have a game, which is basically similar to real life, but with 1 or 2 big differences, like cdda’s zombie outbreak, or fallout great war, which basically destroyed the life as we know it.[/quote]
Exactly right.
I agree. I liked the rest of the other “questionable” changes the community didn’t accept right off the bat, too - weapon magazines and dirty clothing in particular. If it’s implemented well (which filthy clothing really isn’t, but it’s better than nothing), I see no reason not to add it. I don’t care about “added tedium” as long as it makes sense. That’s what makes CDDA unique. It tries to simulate certain aspects of life instead of going for a more arcade approach other roguelikes tend to take (simplistic equipping of armor and weapons, simplistic combat, simplistic health systems etc).
If you turned CDDA into ADoM with zombies it’d lose nearly all of its appeal. I’m glad the game doesn’t try to make mundane tasks simple so you can skip to the “fun part” like other fantasy roguelikes do. Hell, you wanna make me have to add ingredients to my cooking manually? Or select which eating utensil I’ll eat with before I start eating? Go ahead. This IS the fun part for me. Each person has their own vision of what the game should be and each opinion is as valid as the other. Throw showers and bathroom breaks into the mix, I don’t care. That’s what I want the game to become, if it’s not considered that already - a zombie survival simulator.
Our diet already affects the way we wake up in the morning, and body HP in the long run. We already have to boil and cook food so it doesn’t infect us with parasites. We are already (U)nloading one container into the other to conserve precious inventory space when scavenging for supplies. Our magazines already need to be reloaded manually so the weapon we use can be considered reloaded. Are we going to go deeper? I certainly hope we do. That’s what I play the game for. And when I manage to defeat a monster that was previously blocking me from looting a building, or emerge victorious from a fight with a large horde, or loot a lab for its valuable loot - that’s when I learn to truly appreciate these deviations from my routine, and that’s where I “recharge” my power to deal with the things you call “tedius” and I call life - putting things in their respective stockpiles and containers so my shelter is tidy, micro-managing my inventory so it’s more convenient to use, fixing clothes up so they stay in top shape, cooking dinner for myself and my companion and more.
I like maintenance. Why do we put and take clothes off? I mean, the temperature system could be removed to remove tedium, right? Why do we need to cook (B)utchered meat if it’s yet another step in the process of keeping ourselves from starving to death? Heck, remove hunger entirely - it stops me from exploring and filling my inventory with cool artifacts and loot. Right?
Do you not see how this can be stretched to both ends of the argument?
It’s not about realistic mechanics. Those are fine. It’s about how they are implemented. If you want to know an example of how not to do it, try to wash filthy clothes in the game, a game that has all kinds of things and items that could help you wash anything.
That was the main concern of that mechanic.
The game is full of disjointed mechanics like that.
An example of good mechanics can be found in Dwarf Fortress, where spilling wine in the floor can make your entire fort fall, just because cats step on it. All the mechanics that had to go together just to make that story true is amazing. Stuff on the floor, stuff being picked up by stepping on it, cats licking their paws and drinking whatever is on them, cats being drunk, etc. etc.
Washing clothes? Oh, craft a washing table and use an amount of water that was ridiculous, to the point that you needed to be next to a river.
Well, it is a way to wash clothes, but there are many, many more, and the game has all the things that could let you do it, but doesn’t.
So that is why that mechanic sucks.
We don’t want realistic mechanics, we want interconnected, realistic, fun mechanics.
I’m not arguing against you here, StopSignal. It’s obvious that a lot of the newer mechanics, while making the game ‘kinda’ more realistic, are also badly done, that all the stuff could have been done a lot better.
It is, however, a start to see something like washing clothes, eating the right kinda food in the game. Could it be improved? Heck yeah. It needs to be improved. That’s the point of the experimentals though. Adding new stuff, see how people - and the game itself - reacts to it and then start to adjust, fix and connect the things you added.
The real issue at the moment is, at least in my opinion, that too much new stuff was added in very little time. We started with the nutritional system, then we suddenly also had washable clothes, and inbetween people started to rework the vehicle system and the inventory screen. All of those things aren’t bad per se, but the timing was off - instead of throwing out everything more or less at the same time the coders should have waited, why rushing it all out?
They could have easily started with adding one new feature, for example the dirty clothes and washing them. Then they could start to adjust that stuff and add new ways of washing clothes, maybe even make a craftable washing machine, which can, for example, be added to a car and draws water and energy from the car. Just throw dirty clothes in and 1 Soap, then turn it on and in the amount X the clothes are clean, but [wet] - then they would just need to dry, like towels, and done.
Then, when everything there was finsihed, they could have gone to the next one, the nutritional system. Maybe add some more categories, different vitamins for example, so that certain fruits can be more…distinct nutritional wise. Or combine it with certain mutations as well - hair/fur needs a lot of zinc for example, if you have a zinc deficit the fur mutation might go away after a while because of hair loss. Just as an example, i wouldn’t think that it’s so easy to get rid of fur 
Concise and correct
Exactly. It needs to not only be consistent, but always ask what it adds to gameplay. Most of the realism elements in Dwarf Fortress are consistently applied and tend to add to gameplay to some extent. Whereas, well…I wouldn’t be constantly saying “realism has to add to gameplay” if that advise was unwarranted.
Exactly. It needs to not only be consistent, but always ask what it adds to gameplay. Most of the realism elements in Dwarf Fortress are consistently applied and tend to add to gameplay to some extent. Whereas, well…I wouldn’t be constantly saying “realism has to add to gameplay” if that advise was unwarranted.[/quote]
Well, DF is imo one of those anomalous beasts of a game that is just so well-put together and, well…far enough into development that the seemingly tiny (and usually unnecessary) gameplay mechanics put in simply to further improve the simulation of IRL (dorfy IRL, granted) stuff adds a lot of positive to an incredibly complex game whereas CDDA still hasn’t quite figured out the right balance between RL and game-y mechanics to create a !!FUN!!! experience for most everyone.
I honestly have a rather low standard for games as a whole. I always manage to look past the small bits of shit for the larger shits and giggles all games provide in varying amounts. Of course, I noticed the quality decline, but, having no sure, tested method of fixing the stuff, I refrain from complaining about it.