Piercing Dmg overpowered?

Game Talk The Bunker
61

Do you have any citations of how well built these robots are? Any citations of structural weaknesses or how thick the armor is?

These are robots designed for stopping riots and chasing down criminals, not taking on a melee character with a melee weapon.

I don’t doubt that wood would be very terrible against such things, but only rarely would such weak weapons damage these things. Crits should take into consideration armor so that this doesn’t happen.

But making the game arbitrarily more difficult for melee characters seems like a step in the wrong direction.

Crits shouldn’t discount armor values with melee weapons, but making just robots more difficult for the sake of realism isn’t something that should be done.

62

I don’t care a great deal about realism. But stuff like this destroys the verisimilitude for me. I still don’t understand the grand objection with requiring players to employ powerful weapons in order to defeat powerful enemies. Even if that weapon is a sledgehammer or a morningstar, for those who are just bound and determined to take an explosion to the face.

63

@gtaguy criticals should be reduced by armor to make armor useful for enemies at all crits just by pass it crazy because criticals deal a huge amount of multiplied dmg and armor just reducing it by what ever it has. If you have a high skill then your attacks would bypass some of the armor and also if your weapon has a higher piercing percentage. The only small robots we have is the eyebot,manhack,copbot,secubots and turrets, anything larger than that should be hard to kill if not using appropriate weapons.

@halbersturgeon imagine pocket-knifing a hulk or the Jabberwock without decent skills you won’t be able to dmg it at all and get killed.
as for a sledge-hammer,mace and morning star those would be appropriate for most robots and all of them if your strong enough and skilled to do it. (We can imagine that having a high melee skill allows to jump really high to hit their body with weak-spots for large robots )

64

No. -GlyphGryph

65

Removed a stupid derail argument. Gtaguy, additionally, do not write posts in all red for no reason - nice to reserve that for moderation unless there’s a particular purpose to posting in red. Also, stop flipping out.

66

I tried playing with a 6 str 10 dex 14 int and 16 perception character once (thinking I could live with going all range) didn’t go back to weak str types ever as on leaving the shelter that spawned in the middle of town was a death sentence.

the reason we have guns and other types of weapons is because we have but more likely supposedly have stronger enemies that we need to use them on other wise a stronger weapon makes no sense if you can defeat a strong enemy with the weakest weapon at the start.

I find that as you grow stronger any monster is just easy kill. In-fact I modded all the monsters to play my hard-core edition with high hp value (X5-X6), better armor for some monsters, a speed boost to some monsters, some hit better,some dodge better, given them dmg boosts (example smoker zombies grabbing you) and that gives me a challenge and better use of tactics. (Like using a fire extinguisher on a zombie 2 times even on normal terrain to magically stun them giving me a free hit or two with that fire extinguisher before spraying them again note that it doesn’t work on every monster or until it get’s taken out from the game)

67

Le sigh.

The reason we have guns is so that people have an alternative to being a melee character. If we make guns a requirement to kill any enemy whatsoever it removes the point. Armor should be taken into account during crits but we shouldn’t remove diversity in character types for the sake of realism.

Guns aren’t as powerful as you would like to believe, it’s only your high end stats that get you the high dmg output.

68

Melee is already an extremely good alternative Mutant Cyborg Ninja sure as hell beats any gun/archery. (especially having 8 tentacle arms) It’s not about making guns a requirement to kill everything the main point is that melee should have some realistic balance limitations on the " Average Joe" that requires time and effort to achieve Mutant Cyborg Ninja stage which is easy to achieve as you progress.

Gun power is based on ammo type,caliber of ammo, and gun quality so yeah killing a zombie with a .22 ratshot which is not even effective on humans is funny and but not amusing. (and the nail gun just pawns everything without armor)

69

No it doesn’t.

At lvl 3 firearms with a ruger red hawk I can 1-shot a hulk.

At lvl 7 bashing I can 1-shot a brute.

So at lvl 3 firearms are more powerful than a lvl 7 melee character.

70

[quote=“gtaguy, post:69, topic:1786”]No it doesn’t.

At lvl 3 firearms with a ruger red hawk I can 1-shot a hulk.

At lvl 7 bashing I can 1-shot a brute.

So at lvl 3 firearms are more powerful than a lvl 7 melee character.[/quote]

a loaded ruger red hawk does 38 base dmg and uses .44 magnum for Handgun/Revolver/Rifle with forces ranging from 760 ft·lbf (1,030 J) to 1,533 ft·lbf (2,078 J) depending on grain size.
(read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Magnum) and because head-shots do X8 DMG which is deserved cause guns uses ammo which is a limited resource not available everywhere except 9mm’s which are everywhere and almost infinite…

also lvl 7 bashing with what weapon and stats? also even if melee only does crits that are X2 multiplier dmg (Supposedly up to X4 for vital hits but testing doesn’t give X4 even with insane skill level, and only applies bonus dmg to a fixed X2 critical) they become stronger overtime you reach a higher melee and weapon skill level. your forgetting that Mutated Characters can apply 7 tentacles,hooves,horns,fangs,claws,tail how’s that weak and being “FREE”?

71

Who says the robots are all covered in steel plate?

It might be cool to have some late-game enemies that are hard to kill without very powerful attacks, like something that doesn’t spawn at the beginning or else something at the bottom of a mine/cave/Lab/Sarcophagus/etc. But if the devs say the robots are delicate enough to be beaten apart that’s believable. Look at ASIMO, you could mess that up with a spear.

But it’s silly to assume that any robot is plated entirely in metal. Most robots I’ve seen are delicate enough to be disabled by unarmed attacks. Robots aren’t the same things as steam locomotives, they have delicate electronics inside that can be jostled apart by a sharp blow even if the hull isn’t breached.

At any rate, there’s NO reason that guns should be made more powerful than melee weapons. Sledgehammers and axes do tremendous damage, as do metal-tipped spears. You can more easily break a car with a sledgehammer than with a gun, probably.

72

[quote=“Verdigriss, post:71, topic:1786”]Who says the robots are all covered in steel plate?

At any rate, there’s NO reason that guns should be made more powerful than melee weapons. Sledgehammers and axes do tremendous damage, as do metal-tipped spears. You can more easily break a car with a sledgehammer than with a gun, probably.[/quote]

Ammo isn’t a limited resource, just walk around until a new town with a gun store spawns. Also with reloading kits you can morph all types of ammo into the type you need.

Your argument holds no face value, mutations are random and very rarely does anyone reach the point of super cyborg mutant status. Melee is undersold and you have very little idea of how kinetic force or even a simple blade works.

73

[quote=“Stevensonz, post:70, topic:1786”][quote=“gtaguy, post:69, topic:1786”]No it doesn’t.

At lvl 3 firearms with a ruger red hawk I can 1-shot a hulk.

At lvl 7 bashing I can 1-shot a brute.

So at lvl 3 firearms are more powerful than a lvl 7 melee character.[/quote]

a loaded ruger red hawk does 38 base dmg and uses .44 magnum for Handgun/Revolver/Rifle with forces ranging from 760 ft·lbf (1,030 J) to 1,533 ft·lbf (2,078 J) depending on grain size.
(read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Magnum) and because head-shots do X8 DMG which is deserved cause guns uses ammo which is a limited resource not available everywhere except 9mm’s which are everywhere and almost infinite…

also lvl 7 bashing with what weapon and stats? also even if melee only does crits that are X2 multiplier dmg (Supposedly up to X4 for vital hits but testing doesn’t give X4 even with insane skill level, and only applies bonus dmg to a fixed X2 critical) they become stronger overtime you reach a higher melee and weapon skill level. your forgetting that Mutated Characters can apply 7 tentacles,hooves,horns,fangs,claws,tail how’s that weak and being “FREE”?[/quote]

Re mutations: Dev version has imposed some level of category-enforcement. Basically, Hooves/Horns, Fangs/Claws, & Tentacles should, to some degree, be mutually exclusive. Tails may be a possibility, unless you got the tentacles.

Further, unless you’ve put in a fair amount of time and/or resources, you’re probably gonna have some downsides to your mutations: random unavoidable noise from Screamer, activity restrictions from sunlight/temp dependencies, global slowdown thanks to Ponderous, etc. Mutation, even with Robust Genetics, ain’t an I Win button.

Re late-game enemies: Maybe I overleveled or something, but I know that the Amigara Horrors are a serious threat to even a full-blown Combat Monster and the Thing made me (piloting said Combat Monster) sit up and pay attention, even though I came through undamaged. (That was with the old Dodge though.) Not sure how I’d fare against the Dark Pedestal.

As for the rest of it: Every time I see “overpowered” or “balance”, I get twitchy. IME those are cries for “more work, less reward”, “takes longer, more drudgery”, and other such negative things. So I’m inclined to leave well enough alone.

74

Hmmm look at that, everyone disagrees but you?

Well what is right and good is defined by the consensus, so this change isn’t getting added anytime soon.

75

[quote=“Verdigriss, post:71, topic:1786”]Who says the robots are all covered in steel plate?

It might be cool to have some late-game enemies that are hard to kill without very powerful attacks, like something that doesn’t spawn at the beginning or else something at the bottom of a mine/cave/Lab/Sarcophagus/etc. But if the devs say the robots are delicate enough to be beaten apart that’s believable. Look at ASIMO, you could mess that up with a spear.

But it’s silly to assume that any robot is plated entirely in metal. Most robots I’ve seen are delicate enough to be disabled by unarmed attacks. Robots aren’t the same things as steam locomotives, they have delicate electronics inside that can be jostled apart by a sharp blow even if the hull isn’t breached.[/quote]

You’re not seriously comparing ASIMO to advanced robots that are supposed to fill police/security/military roles, are you?

I also disagree.

That’s not the reason we have guns at all. There is absolutely nothing forcing you to use ranged or melee exclusively, so why are you acting like this is going to harm ‘the melee people’? I use melee and also ranged. Don’t you? Doesn’t everyone? Why would anyone restrict themselves from using something in the game other than as a personal conduct, and moreover why shouldn’t the game make players use tools that make sense in a given situation, rather than just letting them get away with fighting a robotic monster with a twig?

76

(Apologies: I’m fostering an 8-week old kitten until the weekend or so, and he’s currently sleeping on my lap. Makes using the laptop tricky.)

I agree that there’s no reason to strictly refuse to fight at range or in melee.

Personal: I typically avoid firearms thanks to the noise (I play Dynamic) & RNG-linked ammo factor. Archery seemed interesting until ahem someone made basic arrows take all sorts of crafting, rather than the grab & go with wood and a knife. Basically, I think I’d need 10 volume or so in order to make the New! Balanced! arrows, and for a melee fighter that’s not trivial.

In the event I need to kill something–typically a Turret–at range, I stockpile Rocks, sneak up in the dark, and start throwing at range 6 or so; ST10-11 if it matters. The Rocks aren’t destroyed but the turret is–remember, these are baseball-sized rocks.

77

I don’t like what you would call ‘requirements’.
Every time I hear the word ‘requirements’ I wince.

Making guns a requirement for dealing with robots is absurd.

Also, back on the tracks!

Armor should be applied to crits with melee, but nobody can kill hardly anything with a pointy stick. I doubt anyone brave enough to attack a copbot would do so with a sharpened branch.

Now I understand that cutting shouldn’t do shit against metal and whatnot but you are overselling guns.

You would need a .45 caliber or a 12 gauge ‘superslug’ to pierce most any amount of armor that wouldn’t easily be cannonfodder for anyone with a rock.

These are taser bots, not mech warriors. There is nothing a gun can do a good sledgehammer can’t.

Can your 9mm (which isn’t even designed to kill, only maim criminals) open a door silently? A crowbar can. Can your 12 gauge saiga butcher a corpse? A machete can.

Anyway my point is that if robots have armor a piercing crit shouldn’t negate that. But making melee more difficult just so you feel you aren’t cheating the game isn’t fair to the players.

I think you have a bit too much of “Call of Duty Syndrome”. Guns aren’t that fucking powerful or great. You couldn’t go to war and do noscopes and quick scopes. The 2-5 shot bam your dead thing is bullshit. I have friends in the army and a medic wasn’t wearing his armor and took 37 5.56 NATO rounds to the chest and legs. He was better in under a year. Guns aren’t made for killing the person outright remember, only to disable internal organs and let organ failure or bloodless kill them. Neither of which a robot or zombie is affected by. I personally think guns need a NERF.

Remember the story of David and Goliath? Where David faced down a giant and killed him with a stone from his sling to the head? Really if you want to nit-pick about how a stone wouldn’t do that much against a giants skull I would launch a rock out of a sling at your head and then let you decide.

And for the coup de grace: Would you wear the same armor that the robots do and go out with only a point-blank taser against a guy who has trained with a spear for 3 days? If so, would you feel safe against him? Lets remember that the copbots taser doesn’t even leave the victim stunned on the ground.

The needs of one two<The needs of everyone else.
[sub]Please note that these are the opinions of gtaguy and are not to be taken as fact or law. If you have any problem with my opinions or beliefs please take it up with my ass. I’m entitled to my opinions and if anyone says otherwise they can contact the aforementioned anus.[/sub]

78

I have no interest in Call of Duty, nor have I any interest in getting into a big, stupid debate about what caliber bullet would be required to punch through steel or how powerful guns are.

The only reason guns even came up was because someone early on in the thread complained that removing the ability to kill robots with pointy sticks was tantamount to forcing players to use limited resources to deal with them. This was a foolish argument because a. the game already penalises players for meleeing most robotic foes, b. ammunition isn’t limited, and c. there is nothing wrong with a game presenting challenges to the player that require limited resources to be expended.

In short, I don’t care if a 9mm bullet can’t kill a robot. I don’t care if a sledgehammer can kill a robot, god knows heavy melee weapons have little enough purpose in the game as it stands. I don’t even care if robots are practically impervious to both bullets and melee and require explosives or energy weapons to destroy. I do care that enemies made out of steel have no way of mitigating piercing damage because the game fails to take into account the fact that it was delivered by a wooden stick.

79

Simply put enemies needs some pierce resistance and armor buff with regards to their material. Example Liquid/Plastic type enemies should bounce off most Bashing damaging but not cutting/piercing.

The game is already easy enough once you get your skills past 3 and decent stats unless you built your stats to be weak like 6,6,16,10.

If you really think about it armor should reduce critical damage to even make said armor effective (Other wise armor would be just be a capped dmg reducer)

and Critical hits happening 100% of the time once you reach a certain skill level of 6+ with decent stats is unrealistic really (Criticals should have a set cap of 70%-80% from happening).

Also in regards to arrows the fix simulates realism and simply carving a pointed skewer like arrow with wood and nothing to support it (fire hardening,fletches,arrow head) will not do much dmg even if you stab something with that skewer like thing hence the change to fletching of arrows.

It fixed the factor that you won’t be able to abuse it that early and not take out the difficulty fun because starting too powerful early takes out fun faster.

Anyway if you noticed New special arrows have been added just to offset the difficulty of creating arrows, once you make Flammable arrows and use a lighter to turn them into novelty Flaming arrows (It will set a target on fire better than any incendiary round could ever do cause it isn’t a 1in4 chance for flesh type)

Similarly plans regarding weapons (Yes Melee weapons included which means unarmed gloves with effects) would be making new specialty effect ones which produces electric,fire,acid,freezing dmg.

80

I never saw 100% chance of critical hits a problem. I do not see them as some kind of a lucky break. Rather, my character is so madly skilled he strikes at vital spots every time. Perhaps it requires too little skill to attain such mastery in the game, however. Have you considered lowering your starting points if the game is too easy for you?