Personal opnion - explosions are overbuffed, with two examples (UPDATED - SEE NEW LONG POST BY ME)


#21

Even basic zombies are smart enough to grab you and try and hold you in place. Boomers will vomit you, and then attempt to disengage until they’re ready to vomit again. All the zombie breeds out there do try and do smart things in their efforts to kill the player. Grenadier is no different except his supply of things to do is exceedingly lethal.

Triggering a CBM is no more complex than pulling a grenade pin, activating a manhack may be no more complex than pulling a grenade pin. The Slime that creates the zombies is intelligent, there’s no reason to think it couldn’t figure these out, or learn them somehow from the host body.


#22

Scientists are a leftover from Whales, they simply make no sense.
Bio-operators have martial arts techniques triggered by their CBMs.
Grenadiers wear a hack-launching gear that triggers when near targets, they essentially have an explosive launching turret strapped to them.

That’s the rationales, there can certaintly be some conflicts with those (possibly including the monster descriptions), and those conflicts can get fixed.

FWIW, even if you convince us to get rid of grenadiers, it isn’t going to make it where there are no explosive-wielding enemies, it’l just shift it somewhere else.


#23

About the zombie skills. Grabing, vomiting at you, keeping a safe distance are all animal level of intelligence which is fine, zombies should be dumb. I can even accept CBM usage as some kind of automatic response of the implants. I think martial art usage is fine, they practice that enough to be an automatic response.

But grenadiers are different level, they using homing explosive devices, it can’t be an automatic response or if it is because the just wear an automatic launcher, then they should not be an ex-human, but a robot, the military equipment usage already their territory.

So while i like the grenadier/burner/scientist zombies they are too intelligent because they use items. If they are intelligent enough to use items then soldiers should use their guns too.

I think it would be better if they would be just dumb, so no zombie grenadier/burner but stationary turrets or security bot equivalents.

Maybe scientist zombies should be similar to the amigara monsters or to the rat kings, they could freeze or mutate the player toon through their blob collective which already infected the player toon anyway.


#24

UPDATE

With the new system for explosions that just arrived, i recreated these events, and did some more tests, mostly focusing on armor vs shrapnels topic. I didnt even bother doing tests of unarmored human vs grenades etc. since Kevin based this system on real world data of handgrenade lethality vs (i assume) unarmored people, i am not right person to judge anything there.
Lets start with ammo boiling example. Its no longer case of one or few huge damage spikes when 50 9mm ammo explodes 1 tile away, now its about a dozen hits, and each seems to be a little stronger than 9mm shot fired from average gun. It is able do do low damage through light power armor - in normal situation it is immunue to 9mm, and in case of H.S.S. - its a lot of moderate DMG hits, most likely to kill you.

Now lets see how grenades perform. They care about armor even less. At 8 tiles range while wearing heavy survivor suit, you might be lucky to survive explosion, but lethality seems to be above 50%. Light power armor at range of 5 tiles - very high lethality, above 75% (this thing is 36b/36c, about 2,5x times tougher than kevlar vest). Standard power armor is immunue to grenades, even at point blank range, even if you hold active grenade in your hand.

According to my knowledge, these results seem to be off a little at least. I belive that right now damage potential of every shrapnell is based on its kinetical energy, but its armor penetrating potential seem to too high. To penetrate an armor just pure energy isnt enough, the same way like a thrown rock can have same, or more energy than fired 9mm, but that doesnt mean it will penetrate for example - a breastplate better than bullet. To penetrate armor (metal vs metal) first - projectile needs to be sharp enough and hard enough to make a cut in surface, then it needs energy to bent amror material arround to be able to squeeze in.
If its too soft, like copper shrapnell vs tempered steel - it will loose edge and wont be able to cut surface. If it doesnt have enough energy - it wont penetrate either. The same applies to other situations, like adamantium arrow shot from bow at bronze breastplate 2mm thick. Adamantium can be like 100 times harder than bronze, its edge sharper than steel edge can ever be, but if the projectile doesnt have enough energy to bent a hole that is as big as projectile is thick - it wont get through. In this case armor made from soft material can stop something from much better material - only because bending metals, and other materials too reqires tons of energy. And if your projectile, or shrapnel doesnt have nice cutting edge or refined point, or simply is softer than armor material and cant keep its shape during contact - then in order to penetrate armor it needs ENORMOUS ammounts of energy to rip hole in diameter of now squashed projectile.

Now lets look at few historical examples. First “bulletproof” vest ever made, sewn from many layers of silk - so much weaker than kevlar. It was able to stop very weak 8mm revolver bullets. In 1902 it saved Alfonso XIII of Spain from bomb explosion. There arent precise informations about explosion force, we know only that everyone agreed that if not that vest king would be guaranteed death. Now - WWI and steel helmets. Casualty rates dropped by about 15% on fronts where helmets were introduced, and deaths from shrapnels to the head only (excluding hits to face) - dropped almost to zero. And most of these were big mortar shrapnels at very varying ranges of impact. Vietnam - kevlar vest introduced to help aganist grenades shrapnels and not bullets - they did relatively well exactly what were supossed to.
So, in conclusion: In my personal opinion shrapnels should be much worse at getting through armor, not be like bullets fired from rifles. I am aware that everyone isnt going to agree with that, and so far i havent talked about current shrapnels vs naked humans, which i bellive is as realistic as we can get, but, i can see another problem here, and this one unfortunatelly might be MUCH harder to fix than introducking few simple modifiers.

Now lets talk about something that scares me and is very immersion breaking to me - its completely broken scale of range! I will try to explain as best as i can.
It is stated that one tile in game is 1mteter. And explosions are now made extreamly realistic (at least vs unarmored). But EVERY other factor of game isnt scalled to match realistic numbers. This includes movement (characters running at 0,33m/s, while 7,5 m/s is realistic), vision range (about 60-70m of max viev), other weapons effective range and shape of few enviroment features, like cars 4m broad, and walls 1m thick.
Now i am perfectly aware that due to mechanical limitations, we cant have realistic values for everything, like sniping from 2000m with heavy antimaterial rifles, but we can have general scale - like having effective range of sniper rifles 2-3x times longer than standard rifles, rifles having 2x more range than SMG, SMG having 1,5x more range than handguns, handguns having more range than shotguns, and shotguns - having more range than grenade explosion radius. But right now, because only explosives have realistic range valuse, while everything else is not, and often its like 1/10 of realistic value, you can have situation like this:
On open field you meet a bandit armed with m4a1 who has all skills at 4th level. You have 1 skill point in everything, and are armed with mp5 and a grenade. You have no way of defeating a bandit by winning shooting contest, but can simply throw granade 20 tiles in his direction, and if he is 5-10 tiles away, armored or not, he is dead. And he has no chance to engage you at 30 tiles with his rifle and skills. This way 1skil lvl charcter defeats better equipped character on open field only because explosives are OP.
But wait, there is more. Real life grenades have fuse of 6-5 seconds, and killing potential about 15m. It means if grenade lands on you, and you imidietly react by running away, it takes about 2 seconds to get away from 100% death sentence. By this time fuse has probably 2 seconds left, it was abut 4 seconds when it landed nex tto you. Its 1/2 fusetime to get away from death. Now what we have ingame. grenade lands on you, it has 30 seconds fuse, probably 24 when it landed. You can move 2 tiles per 6 seconds. It requires 8x6 seconds, 48 seconds to move 15 tiles. It is 2x times more than fusetime left. You have no chance to escape, while IRL you could have chance to escape. Thats a trap of having only explosives using realistic values, but other factors, like movement - not.


#25

Don’t know where did you get this number, but you are wrong on the very first sentence. It was stated (many times) that a tile doesn’t has any fixed range. It scales dynamically based on what are trying to measure. Therefore it is completely wrong to calculate the size of a tile based on average speed of walking and the time required to traverse one tile.


#26

Maybe i was wrong here. But that doesnt change anything. It doesnt change fact that in case of explosions, tiles are meters. it doesnt change fact, that you can outrange milspec turrets on flat ground with fresh unskilled character, while if you wanted to use a rilfe, you need a really good one, with mods, a scope, and a skill level that requires few hours of grind. It doest change a fact, that you can anihilate hordes, specials, hulks. It doesnt change fact, that you can massacre shaggots, while before before you needed some clever idea to do so, long preparation, or top-tier lategame gear and/or skills.


#27

Uhmm… But that’s what explosives was designed to - to pwn! Explosives ARE more powerful than rifles and most other types of weapons.


#28

Ok, maybe vs shaggots, and hordes - to an extend. Enemies should tank explosions a lot more. Right now, if a tough zombie is hit for a total of 100 DMG, it imidietly telports to ground, giving no more resistance to the cloud. This way one grenade can kill many dozens of human-sized enemies. But IMHO a body should be able to take arround 500-1000hp of damage before its compleetly destroyed and so leaky that everything flows through. If you suddenly got 1/5 of your flesh destroyed, youre dead, but it doesnt mean your body cant stop more dmg. I am talking about scenarios when a soldier covers a grenade with his body, to save his friends nearby.


#29

Need to adjust this back down, these should simply not be that dangerous.

Does heavy survivor suit have 100% coverage? If it does this seems problematic.

This definitely needs adjusting, light power armor should be totally immune to these fragments (though the blast is another story).

In short, I’ll adjust the damage vs number of fragments numbers some more, more fragments but less damage from each, that will nerf fragments relative to armor.

We have the same problem within firearms, the variation in range is much higher than the amount of range we have available. Short term, this is irreconcileable. Please understand, within our constraints, we have NO way to make things totally consistent, all we can do is pick which things are or are not consistent.
The reason grenades and other explosives have such long ranges is that their effectiveness is based on their range. With guns it’s a matter of comparative reach, but with explosives, longer range means killing more things. A single grenade thrown into a tight group of zombies can kill as many as 100 of them, nerfing their range to match gun engagement ranges means grenades aren’t as good at what they do as they are supposed to be. This is a much bigger problem than the ranges not matching.

This isnt something dda is built to handle, full stop. Dda is mostly built around engagements with masses of attackers you greatly outrange.

That does not sound right, after some looking around, it looks like world class 20m sprint times are around 3 seconds:
https://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/sprint-tests.htm
That might sound like it supports your point, except for a few issues.

  1. These sprint times are based on being ready and waiting to start sprinting, which minimizes reaction times.
  2. Times based on 100% unencumbered athletes, with ideal running shoes on an ideal running surface. Almost no dda survivors are fully unencumbered.
  3. Times based on athletes who are specifically training for this event under controlled circumstances. Dda survivors aren’t doing specialized training for 20m sprints.

Basically, you dont run from grenades, it doesnt work. Your only valid options are getting behind nearby shelter or throwing the grenade, both of which are feasible in the game.

This is mostly irrelevant.
Once fragments are nerfed vs armor, using grenades against turrets is going to be terribly ineffective (actually I’ll add that to my testing).
Grenades are super valuable, using them on turrets is going to be a poor use of them.

You can’t massacre them unless you have a large stockpile of grenades, at which point yea, you have a lot of resources, so you can kill stuff.

That’s not how it works, monsters do block significant amounts of fragments, 4 regular-sized zombies in a row will block enough fragments to save a 5th, larger monsters like brutes and hulks block a much larger proportion of fragments.

There’s no scenario where this is going to happen in the game, zombies don’t know to do it, and NPCs are unlikely to be coded to do this.


#30

Well, thanks for the respond.
If armor gets buffed vs explosions, then 80% of my complains are gonna be satisfied. Rest could probably be tweaked when 6 to 1 second turn change arrives, and maybe just a tiny nerf (like20%) to easily-portable explosives, so they arent outperforming other things of similar role, like shotguns, but thats just my personal bias.
I know that ammount of criticism and whine i wrote down in this thread may suggest i am a hobbyst hater of CDDA, but its completely opposite, and i admire hard work and dedication of contributors.


#31

There’s no scenario where this is going to happen in the game, zombies don’t know to do it, and NPCs are unlikely to be coded to do this.

Interesting, I’ll look into this along with the rest of the NPC/AI overhaul


#32

I know a few people mentioned this already but as a reminder. Explosions have shockwaves that kill by pressure. Bombs can explode your lungs inside your chest as well as the opposite. The pressure vacuum can do the reverse, which is seriously f**ked up! Bomb goes off and the reverse pressure will either decapitate via the forced removal of the lungs through the neck or rip them out of your chest enough to bleed and choke to death.

Sorry for being graphic. But to make the point; in a confined hallway. Even a grenade will have it’s force go somewhere…even if it means in you or through you.

Loose Bullets on fire:
While some movies will have you believe these are lethal. Youtubers have figured out that without a barrel to force the pressure through. The exploded round will be similar to a fire cracker and do little(if any) harm unless somehow your hand is on fire while still tightly gripping the bullet…but then you would have some more pressing matters to attend like…being on fire! Maybe you were tightly gripping it while electrocuted? But…well you get the idea -_-


#33

I’m fine with that, it just doesn’t make sense for a zombie. I suggest something in the robot line.