On Tiles and Why We Don't Have Them (But we're progressing. Thanks utunnels)

[Deon]

Also the fact that tilesets slow development, because adding stuff is harder.

Bullshit :P.
Once you get a working version, I will make a tileset in a few days.

[String]

Whenever the system gets put in place, I would like to toss my hat in to create a tileset. Or at the very least help out anyone else who is also planning on working on the graphic side of it.

[GlyphGryph]

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:19, topic:197”]Also the fact that tilesets slow development, because adding stuff is harder.

Bullshit :P.
Once you get a working version, I will make a tileset in a few days.[/quote]

It’s not bullshit. Well, not for OUR implementations so far, anyway. Every tileset implementation attempted so far has had wide and far reaching consequences. It either means a lot of work for the tileset support team from a technical perspective, a constant need to account for tiles whenever switching anything view related. It’s work that would undoubtedly be appreciated, but that doesn’t stop it from dragging resources that could be going to other stuff to maintain the tileset support.

I guess I should have clarified it’s not the tilesets THEMSELVES that slow development - it’s needing the game to continue supporting them, heh.

It shouldn’t though, at least not this seriously. It honestly and really shouldn’t. But with the codebase we have… Anyway, I’m going to give it a go, as I said, once items are completed, if Tase hasn’t returned (Damn you, Taaaaaase!) and no one else starts working on it.

I expect frustration and failure though.

Sorry to drag you back before it was ready, btw. It really did look like it was coming together, but then we went and did that big UI overhaul and I think that broke things…

[youtoo]

can you plug this into noteye? Adom just plugged into it.

[Psiweapon]

can you plug this into noteye? Adom just plugged into it.

WOW I was just going to post this. I’m involved with development of another roguelike and we use Necklace of the Eye for tile support.

[GlyphGryph]

It’s certainly worth looking into.

[gonkdroid]

When you implement tileset support, can you use Open GLES? Both Cataclysm and DDA were ported to the Pandora Handheld, but activating tileset support causes incredible slowdown.

[vultures]

Yes, it’s that last thing you don’t think about… game speed.
Now I know I’m a newbie but this is how it works:
It’s easy to say - it’s a boy’s world, and the boy has a 3 GHz tablet running 1080p trailers whilst downloading that RPG from Steam, so should we?
My idea is - after a day-long trip, with some bad coffee and an energy bar in my hand, I am able to play some of the best games as they were intended. On an office machine, in the middle of, I mean, anywhere.
To be completely honest - I am typing this on an 128 megz P2, and yes, over here tiles are a nightmare.

[kevin.granade]

To reassure you with respect to performance:
If dda doesn’t run properly on my netbook, it’s a problem
The idea is to add tiles as an option, not transition to them. There is no plan to make tiles the primary interface.

[vultures]

Maybe I stated the obvious, somewhat disregarding the subject. If we (the community, I like to think that aiding the discussion here is a valuable form of support) implement tiles into a turn-based adventure like DDA here it’s gonna end up having a couple of issues already seen, and a bunch of happy people respectfully.
I assure you my banner isn’t saying “You can’t make everyone happy”.
I can think of a few ways to make tiles really work. A roguelike hybrid, UnrealWorld had this sorted out. But it’s an adventure game, and it’s area-showing logic says much about what the game is about. And if you look at Shadowrun, it does the same, with much more plot involved. Therefore, both games require a certain set of tasks in order to survive; Shadowrun does that more, as it has a well-balanced learning curve at the beginning while UW gives much more freedom. To clear one or two things, UnrealWorld goes to show how a “heavy” game - both generated and with actions on the big map - can look and feel with tiles embedded. In the end, it’s an old game but it tends to like RAM much more than it should.
To summarize, going at diagonal perspective maybe would make ends meet, with perception being the ultimate key how to accomplish this. Judging solely on experience, this wouldn’t change the game much, and if you come up with a concept of a graphical world that is slowly deteriorating, it’s a win.

[rokomata]

I find myself in agreement with your reasoning, but let me just point out that practically any type of perspective, viewpoint etc. will do as long as Cataclysm gets opened up for more artistic freedom, enabling the vast majority to steer the reigns of its visual appearance as they see fit.

[Xantrim]

[quote=“Tase, post:13, topic:197”]I ported Gremour’s tiles to the latest DDA

https://github.com/tasetase/CZSplusDDA/tree/tiles[/quote]

The link doesn’t work anymore, do you still have that stuff somewhere?

[prytoclasm]

You could always add some color to the world with different colored trees, walls, cars (enable paintshops? - I want a toxic green car!), which is possible without tiles.

[rokomata]

You could always add some color to the world with different colored trees, walls, cars (enable paintshops? - I want a toxic green car!), which is possible without tiles.

That is true and I concur with your point: adding color to Cataclysm as of this moment and considering how far Cataclysm has come in terms of development and progress is not an impossible feat at all. The fact remains though that having a functional tile system in place benefits a number of critical factors, replay value being one, beyond replay value just think of how vibrant and lush the world would become and how engaging things would get for the consumer. I think tiles are more than worth a shot in this case.

[vultures]

This is the perspective.

To be clear, this is 8-bit graphics

And some juice…

… using VESA SVGA.

Conclusion : At 16-bit graphics, the tilework can be very fast.
My estimate, if stacked items are displayed as common examples (e.g. in a box, covered) running such display could use up to 40% more CPU and RAM.

[rokomata]

Those shots of yours are magnificent, I tell you. Who’s to say Cataclysm should deny itself the luxury of carrying a tile system around?

Although, from what I understand the designated chunk of source code supposedly does a very lousy job at drawing and rendering stuff across the board in a cost-efficient manner so there’s no telling as to who might be interested and determined enough to try and kick-start the effort.

[vultures]

I really feel there was no artwork to the original Cata, so I had no idea at the time.
It’d be a walk in the park if this were Nethack gigglets, or even, I dunno, Darklands sequel-spawns.

Any ideas, rly? Apart from B/W clipart?

[utunnels]

Dropbox - Error

I wrote a tileset window these days. (The tile picture I’m using to test contains artwork from nethack and dwarf fortress project)
The window uses a json file to store tileset data and can be reloaded in game by pressing F5, so I can edit the json file while playing.

The code is not too efficient because I want to modify as few files as possible, so I can keep the code up to date easily.

[rokomata]

Hey there, utunnels!

Appreciate the effort you’re putting in to bringing tiles into Cataclysm. Thanks for putting up that piece of code as well, although I can’t seem to compile it with Visual Studio 2010. Is this part of your plan or was it something that I did wrong? At any rate, I hope to see you write more posts as time goes on.

And from the headlines that I just looked up it seems as if Cataclysm will be getting its own music sometime down the road. Isn’t that terrific? Stop in for a chat when you feel like it, bud.

[utunnels]

That is strange. What does the error say?

Here’s a debug build: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvoop86vx9ttx3q/DDA-tile.7z

And a screenshot. Playing with this is like cheating because it doesn’t draw fog of war.