New FUN trait: Careless

[esran]

this trait is stupid. its giving you points in return for stupider gameplay. the Y/N prompts are there to make sure you didnt mispress a key, not to warn you about dangerous situations, and removing them doesnt harm the character half as much as it harms the gameplay.

[MassiveEffectz]

One sentence to describe the awesomeness.

Would you like to drink that carboy of bleach (Y/N)

• careless trait

= Profit ???

[system]

Well, be careful.

[Slax]

this trait is stupid. its giving you points in return for stupider gameplay. the Y/N prompts are there to make sure you didnt mispress a key, not to warn you about dangerous situations, and removing them doesnt harm the character half as much as it harms the gameplay.

Many, MANY roguelikes allow you to hold down a key and stumble into whatever hell is in your way. Not like it’s a new thing. People still play through the whole thing from beginning to end.
You don’t like it, you don’t pick it. It’s that simple.

[system]

Yeah, safe mode could also be disabled for this maybe.

[Slax]

No one’s that careless. Cataclysm pre-safe mode was crap so that’s a bad idea.

[KA101]

[quote=“esran, post:21, topic:1771”]this trait is stupid. its giving you points in return for stupider gameplay. the Y/N prompts are there to make sure you didnt mispress a key, not to warn you about dangerous situations, and removing them doesnt harm the character half as much as it harms the gameplay.

Many, MANY roguelikes allow you to hold down a key and stumble into whatever hell is in your way. Not like it’s a new thing. People still play through the whole thing from beginning to end.
You don’t like it, you don’t pick it. It’s that simple.[/quote]

Safety-interlocks are a wonderful thing. As I posted earlier, one of the reasons I like Cata is that it doesn’t pull crap like most roguelikes. No need to make the game worse, IMO.

[system]

Don’t hate on others opinions.

[esran]

Don’t hate on others opinions.

having a different opinion != hating on your opinion.

[system]

Hey, some people would enjoy the added difficulty and need to be careful.

It’s like games where you can IRL pay for good items, if you don’t like it then don’t use it.

[Endovior]

Agree with having the option to remove the handrails. It doesn’t actually seem like ‘fake difficulty’ to me, since it’s explicitly something you’re getting points back on. If you feel that you’re careful enough to just deal with it, you have the option of doing so. But seriously, you can’t have it both ways; don’t complain that it’s meaningless to get points from it when you can just play a little differently, while also saying that it’d ‘make the game worse’ by forcing you into random death situations. Taking Hardcore can also randomly kill you, since you lose the HP to protect from random ambush-deaths. That’s not exactly unfair. This isn’t either. You made a decision that could imperil your life for extra bonuses; if that particular bit of Fun proves to be your undoing, that’s the nature of the game.

Given that I like setting trap grids to keep Zed at bay, and given that it’s easy to walk into your trap grid accidentally, especially when it guards a main entrance or some such, this would meaningfully impact the way I play (in that I would not be able to set traps in front of my house or anywhere else I’ll be walking a lot). That seems a fair trade.

[system]

How many points would it be, like 3-5?

[Endovior]

Hard to balance something like this, but 2 was suggested earlier, and that sounded reasonable to me. It’s nowhere near as huge a disadvantage as Hardcore, certainly, and should have less drastic effects on your playstyle than something like Meat Intolerance. On the other hand, it takes a bit more effort to compensate for than something like Heavy Sleeper. So yeah, 2 sounds good.

[ted]

Given that I like setting trap grids to keep Zed at bay, and given that it’s easy to walk into your trap grid accidentally, especially when it guards a main entrance or some such, this would meaningfully impact the way I play (in that I would not be able to set traps in front of my house or anywhere else I’ll be walking a lot). That seems a fair trade.

It’s easy to walk into traps because there is currently no penalty for doing so. If walking into traps triggered the trap, people wouldn’t do it. Maybe you, specifically, wouldn’t be good enough to deal with it, but that’s no reason to give better players free points. Furthermore, offering advantages to players who are willing to make the game more annoying is still a fundamentally bad idea. Traits should interesting, not annoying, even if they have bad effects.

Unreal World, another roguelike with player made traps, has no confirmation for stepping onto your own trap pits, and may kill or cripple you for doing so. That doesn’t prevent successful players from making extensive use of traps, but it surely makes it more annoying to do so.

[quote=“MassiveEffectz, post:22, topic:1771”]One sentence to describe the awesomeness.

Would you like to drink that carboy of bleach (Y/N)

• careless trait

= Profit ???[/quote]

There’s no confirmation before drinking bleach.

[Nopkar]

exiting a moving vehicle. this is one that I think has been ignored. with careless you’d simply leap out of the moving vehicle.

OR continue pressing the gas instead of break/letting off when you would like therefore being ‘careless’ and speeding ahead towards the town instead of slowing. might make driving more interesting.

[Slax]

No longer an issue, Nopkar. Vehicle handling has been changed.

[Ceasar]

This perk could actually even out the fact that lets say youre surrounded by smoke, and then you get spat on and there is acid around you. Normally you could try searching for a safe way by prompting N at the parts of acid, but with this trait you couldnt do that and yo uwould actually step into the acid. So i feel this would make the player think of every move he makes and go with it instead of having the chance to just choose the best option and encouraging careless gameplay.

And ted not only is this just an option, but if youre such a great player then you can just not take this and it wont affect you in any way, and even if someone uses it and it might be easier??? for them its not like this affects you and its not a competition so it doesnt matter how someone else does.

[Pthalocy]

I mostly find it funny that the main side effect of a trait called ‘careless’ is a massive increase in the amount of care employed by the player choosing it. ‘careless’ in game, ‘manually cautious’ in reality.

I am of the opinion that such options as enabling or disabling game notification types is better suited to the config menu, much like the toggle for safemode and autosafemode. Heck, there’s already an option for toggling some prompts. I am for its inclusion in this capacity.

While I agree with giving the player the option to choose how much they want to check-and-double-check (or not) their decisions ingame, I think there are other methods of accomplishing this. Traits and flaws change how you interact with something by changing the effects or results of that interaction. With careless, the result of stepping on a bear trap is identical, you just don’t get any confirmation before you do it.
Admittedly my definitions could be bent, but that’s not really my point. My point is you’re changing player behaviour by changing something HUD-related rather than interaction qualities, and this is what I think makes it stand out as more menu-worthy than trait/flaw worthy. At the very least, this is helping to make it ‘not fit’ in ways enough to result in the split debate in this thread.

[KA101]

This perk could actually even out the fact that lets say youre surrounded by smoke, and then you get spat on and there is acid around you. Normally you could try searching for a safe way by prompting N at the parts of acid, but with this trait you couldnt do that and yo uwould actually step into the acid. So i feel this would make the player think of every move he makes and go with it instead of having the chance to just choose the best option and encouraging careless gameplay.

Some players (hi!) don’t have time to seriously analyze every step they take and still actually accomplish something in that session. That’s one of the reasons I play Cata and not Nethack. Side note: not every player is male. Just something to keep in mind.

And ted not only is this just an option, but if youre such a great player then you can just not take this and it wont affect you in any way, and even if someone uses it and it might be easier??? for them its not like this affects you and its not a competition so it doesnt matter how someone else does.

1. Some folks (chiefly LazyCat, but I think xe had some support) want scoreboards, etc and pushed for standardization to enable better comparisons. It may not be a competition now, and I want it to stay that way. Doesn’t mean it won’t be a competition in future.

2. If enough people use Careless as a trait, I’m afraid it’ll get marked “free points, everyone uses it” and made the default. GlyphGryph did that with HP Ignorant and I’m still unhappy.

3. I hope a Careless trait wouldn’t be available from mutations, for similar reasons.

[Pthalocy]

1) Some folks (chiefly LazyCat, but I think xe had some support) want scoreboards, etc and pushed for standardization to enable better comparisons. It may not be a competition now, and I want it to stay that way. Doesn't mean it won't be a competition in future.

Standardization is an argument I hadn’t considered.

Given the amount of other options available to be tweaked (I refer to the bleeding edge build in this case), that would leave a lot of other things to likewise ‘lock’ on or off. I feel like you’d almost need a standardized ‘competitive’ gameplay mode under ‘Special’ for that to really be made fair. Sanity-check prompts would be a very good example of why that is necessary. I still think prompt toggling is best suited to the options menu, perhaps moreso in light of the above.

[size=8pt]Off topic, but what pronoun should I use when referring to you KA101? In case I make mention in future replies here.[/size]