Mutation category expansion: experimenting on NPCs derail

[Stretop]

I object to forced-drugging of NPCs. That will be all.

I still would like to know, how about forced-drugging of NPCs as alternative to, you know, forced-killing of NPCs. Wouldn’t it be nice to have option to put that NPC (who is absolutely sure that he totally have to talk to every chimera he sees) into nice deep sleep unstead of having to brutally butcher him?

Also, I just feel the need to correct:

Fallout had The Master forcibly capturing wastelanders and turning them into super mutants against their will, but I don’t seem to recall that chunk of Fallout where you did the same.

He was genuely trying to improve humanity. After all, from his point of view, harmonious society of super-mutants is far better, than eternally bickering packs of humans.

The Reapers in Mass Effect were hellbent on destroying the universe, I don’t recall so much as being given the option to blow up a planet, let alone destroy the universe.

1. The Reapers in Mass Effect were hellbent on saving the galaxy in accordance to commands of Catalyst, who was tasked with safekeeping said galaxy by his creators.
   More clear in-universe example would be Krogan Wars: Krogans abuse their biological superiority to conquer vast swaths of galaxy. What salarians and turians do? They release the genophage (biological weapon) and severely reduce krogan population with it.
2. As for “I don’t recall so much as being given the option to blow up a planet” - you might try to play different genre for that: 4X game “Distant worlds”, for example, have a living history scenario, in which one very unattractive insect-like race have found a planet-shattering weapon of the ancients and blowing up planets. You are tasked with researching a bio-weapon specifically against that race and with bio-designing gigantic cosmic creatures for delivering it to that race.

Payday has you robbing banks and selling large quantities of drugs to dealers, I don’t recall a “blow up the orphanage” mission. Hell, the game penalizes you for killing civilians.

Because such missions are senseless in context of that game.

Hell, the game penalizes you for killing civilians.

Because mass-slaughter is not profitable and should make police more relentless in pursuing you.

Saints Row glorifies crime in every way shape and form, yet I don’t recall the “rape x number of people” achievement.

Because that would bog down the “mass-mayhem instilling” gameplay. Also in 4-th game thare are not so much living people remains to begin with.

Just because something could be done in a game, doesn’t mean it should.

It really depends…

[Flashlight_Hoarder]

Guys, Guys are you forgetting the Psychopath Trait?

[Pthalocy]

What about it? And remember there’s been discussions about it being generally ill-defined as a trait anyway. Lack of guilt over some actions does not encourage further terrible actions in all cases.

[Stretop]

Guys, Guys are you forgetting the Psychopath Trait?

No, not again. We have already discussed at length that Psychopath Trait does not compel you to do unsightly things (unlike actual, real-life psychopaths with their poor control of their urges and constant thrill-seeking). It is really a misnomer and I again ask for it to be renamed as it continues to confuse gamers.

[kevin.granade]

You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:16, topic:8641”]It’s a very simple and clear line being crossed, a torturous action being performed on a living person.

I see no value in adding the ability to do actions of this kind to the game.[/quote]
Feel free to keep arguing if you want, but if both KA101 and myself are completely opposed to it (and we are), it’s not happening short of someone forking the game.

[Closet_Pankin]

[quote=“KA101, post:15, topic:8641”]You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:16, topic:8641”]It’s a very simple and clear line being crossed, a torturous action being performed on a living person.

I see no value in adding the ability to do actions of this kind to the game.[/quote]
Feel free to keep arguing if you want, but if both KA101 and myself are completely opposed to it (and we are), it’s not happening short of someone forking the game.[/quote]

Yup. In the end, it’s the developers who develop.

[Stretop]

And drugging as tool for non-lethal subjugation as alternative to killing, again, got ignored. A pity. On one hand, we are told that killing of NPCs is unsightly and must be reigned in. On the other - we are not provided with any alternative to said killing - either you kill that hostile-for-whatever-reason NPC or he kills you.

[Closet_Pankin]

And drugging as tool for non-lethal subjugation as alternative to killing, again, got ignored. A pity. On one hand, we are told that killing of NPCs is unsightly and must be reigned in. On the other - we are not provided with any alternative to said killing - either you kill that hostile-for-whatever-reason NPC or he kills you.

A method for tranquilizing or otherwise incapacitating would be very nice. Right now it’s either kill or be killed… It’d be awesome to use wrestling to put an NPC into a sleeper hold or something.

[Muaddib]

You guys do realise the issues with non-lethal takedowns?

take down NPC
steal his weapons and armour
leave him laying around in a ditch
zombie horde passes by
NPC wakes up halfway a hulk chewing on his leg stump

It’s an apocalyptic scenario. There are no more functional hospitals and prisons to facilitate non-lethal takedowns. Non-lethal takedowns ARE lethal takedowns. You’re just turning a BLAM-DEAD scenario into a horrible slow SAW-ian horror show where a croggy survivor without weapons and armour has to face off against who knows what.

[Closet_Pankin]

Hey, it wasn’t you who killed them, technically.

I mean, you did, but it’s more about tricking yourself. It’s ideal for quote unquote pacifistic characters.

Also NPCs get to rob me… why can’t I rob them?

[AllisonW]

I’m not advocating for its inclusion, but why do I keep picturing putting mutagen in the water supply as the hot new post-apocalyptic high-school prank?

[Stretop]

[quote=“Muaddib, post:29, topic:8641”]You guys do realise the issues with non-lethal takedowns?

take down NPC
steal his weapons and armour
leave him laying around in a ditch
zombie horde passes by
NPC wakes up halfway a hulk chewing on his leg stump

It’s an apocalyptic scenario. There are no more functional hospitals and prisons to facilitate non-lethal takedowns. Non-lethal takedowns ARE lethal takedowns. You’re just turning a BLAM-DEAD scenario into a horrible slow SAW-ian horror show where a croggy survivor without weapons and armour has to face off against who knows what.[/quote]
Can you please stop trying to make choices for other players?
Can you imagine that there are decent sentient beings out there? Are you saying that each and every player is somehow compelled to “steal his weapons and armour”? Even playstyle considerations aside, let’s think about heavily mutated survivor, for example - he would not be even capable to use that “weapons and armour” - why would he want to steal them?

And, at the end, how is that any worse that what we have now (kill, kill, kill that hostile NPC)?

Also, monastic vows from previous derail would have been useful here.

[Closet_Pankin]

[quote=“Stretop, post:32, topic:8641”][quote=“Muaddib, post:29, topic:8641”]You guys do realise the issues with non-lethal takedowns?

take down NPC
steal his weapons and armour
leave him laying around in a ditch
zombie horde passes by
NPC wakes up halfway a hulk chewing on his leg stump

It’s an apocalyptic scenario. There are no more functional hospitals and prisons to facilitate non-lethal takedowns. Non-lethal takedowns ARE lethal takedowns. You’re just turning a BLAM-DEAD scenario into a horrible slow SAW-ian horror show where a croggy survivor without weapons and armour has to face off against who knows what.[/quote]
Can you please stop trying to make choices for other players?
Can you imagine that there are decent sentient beings out there? Are you saying that each and every player is somehow compelled to “steal his weapons and armour”? Even playstyle considerations aside, let’s think about heavily mutated survivor, for example - he would not be even capable to use that “weapons and armour” - why would he want to steal them?

And, at the end, how is that any worse that what we have now (kill, kill, kill that hostile NPC)?

Also, monastic vows from previous derail would have been useful here.[/quote]

+1. That’s like saying GTA V is an awful game because players just gun down everyone. #NotAllPlayers.

[Bonevomit]

Let me understand your logic, because somebody did something bad sometime you too should do something bad? …I wasn’t aware people actually thought like that, I thought it was just sunday morning cartoon villains.

That’s exactly my logic, somebody in the game did it, so I see no reason why it shouldn’t be allowed. It’s not even something the game bothers to cover up or downplay at any point. And it’s literally in your face at multiple points down the line. If it were rape you can literally play as a “rape victim”, you could even benefit from “rape documents” you find all throughout the labs. I agree that it’s something bad, but rape? This is something I’ve seen done on screen in Futurama, and as far as I know a whole mess of other sci-fi, and is generally considered relatively benign for an adult audience. I’ve never heard a peep about it until now.

This isn’t fallout, Mass Effect, payday, or saints row in that it’s an all encompassing simulation game. There is a lot more to it than just fight your way to the end. And as far as morality goes you can be any kind of character your want, you can be anything from a complete pacifist to a ruthless killing machine on a genocide crusade. You’re not expected to be “The horrible monster, but with their limits”, or at least I didn’t think so. I usually hear things like “if it’s in the real world it can be in cataclysm”. That seems to end when the powers that be claim it’s something they don’t want in, but is often used as an excuse for other controversial content like sex toys. I can get rape being excluded specifically, but when it gets to the point where you start turning other horrible acts into rape to satisfy this, I just don’t agree with that.

And like that other guy said,

Are innoccent npcs going to end up unkillable at this rate?

You can melt NPCs with acid, stab a cornered NPC to death with a spoon, and gather them up in a room and slowly burn them all to death. It's really only limited by the players imagination. I don't usually like playing the villain myself, but if the player decides to play as one I don't see how that does any harm.

[nickspaceman]

uhhh im sorry for derailing the thread @_@ so I feel like I should tell you what I was thinking when I said to use npcs and im sorry if this makes the thread derail more but i’ll say it anywho npcs have always just been npcs to be in this game not really human witch is why I said what I said but moving on why couldn’t there be like. I don’t know maybe one of the lab guys ran off with what little data they had at the time to start his own lab? heck where’nt there logs of guys being fired in the lab logs? and as for funds couldn’t they make a pack with some other country for said funds? that’s my meaning it’d be a easy way to add more Mutations? sorry if that seems a bit silly but its my 2cents also sorry for any miss spellings feel free to yell at me on here/irc

[Darkfirephoenix]

heck where’nt there logs of guys being fired in the lab logs?

Fired, yes. Where they allowed to go? No. The logs stated that the fired personal either got used as test-subjects or terminated (as in outright killed), mainly due to the super secret nature of the research. MAYBE some got away that had nothing to do with the mutation/high tech research directly, as it’s normal in some top secret research projects: Many only work on a specific parts, but only a handfull get the whole picture to work on. Reason for that is that you can easily control the few ppl that know everything (and can take them out) and the rest is clueless about what their work is/was used for.

And you can bet your a…s that IF any researcher made their own lab with even a bit data, they would have been taken out instantly (ESPECIALLY if they wanted to contact other countries for funds)

[KA101]

The Elf-A folks’ tagline is NOBODY DROPS MAIAR INTO LAVA for good reason. (And because I try to throw in references when I get the chance.)

XEDRA was fairly corrupt as agencies go, which is one reason the Elf-A formula got out.

I’m interested why nobody seems to think that the player/factions might want live prisoners for any number of legitimate reasons:
Urist McStuffSnatcher burglarized the HQ, needs caught and put to work on the farm or something;
$opposing_faction took some of ours prisoner and we’d like to exchange;
Let’s interrogate* the jagoff who tried to plant C4 in the raptors’ nest, who put xem up to it and why?;
Mutant escaped from the lab where XEDRA was doing Bad Shit, is understandably scared and attacking everyone, we need to let him know that not all humans are going to hurt him (see: Project Skybreaker, gone Worse?)

*Guantanamo and the CIA notwithstanding, it’s entirely possible, and far preferable, to interrogate folks effectively w/o torture. Treating your prisoners well can be surprisingly effective!

I feel like I should tell you what I was thinking when I said to use npcs and im sorry if this makes the thread derail more but i'll say it anywho npcs have always just been npcs to be in this game [b]not really human[/b] witch is why I said what I said

(emphasis added-KA101)

They’re in a computer game, granted. But in that context, they’re as human as your character or you. If you wouldn’t want it done to yourself, you might consider not doing it to NPCs.

(If I was stealing from someone’s base, I might not want to get attacked, but I’d expect the owner to attack and/or at least hold a grudge if xe caught me. One of the reasons I don’t steal from others’ bases.)

[AllisonW]

perfectly good reasons to keep your prisoners alive and not torture them

All jolly good ideas, and I like having the option to take live prisoners and treat them humanely.

On the other hand, it occurs to me that it might be possible to get willing NPCs for experiments. It might be kind of strange, and they may be difficult to find in large quantities, but “volunteer mutant” is a PC option for some of the scenarios. Thoughts about sources of willing test subjects/things that would make more people willing:

a) mutant-lovers who are excited about the idea of being mutants! (may be in short supply, especially for experimentation where they have limited control over what kind of mutant they’re going to be)
b) other scientists or science-enthusiasts interested in the value of mutagens to the future of humanity (or transhumanity, as the case may be), who may participate as researchers in some trials and subjects in others–the PC may be one of these (may be in short supply)
c) people who need resources, shelter, and protection, and who are willing to be experimented upon in exchange (likely an ample supply; exploitative, but depending upon your perspective may be less bad than alternatives)
d) capital criminals who accept experimentation in lieu of execution or exile (supply uncertain; exploitative, but depending upon your perspective may be less bad than alternatives)
e) purifier being a thing: it’s not perfect, but if you have an ample supply and administer it to your subjects when you’re done with a trial or when they develop a life-threatening mutation, it significantly reduces the risks and will probably increase the availability of willing test subjects. (Purifier might also be a good thing in the case of finding a scared and distraught mutant with bad/unpleasant mutations.)

The last one seems like an important resource gateway for ethical experimentation: in order for ethical experimentation to be possible/feasible, the player will first need the references, skill, and supplies for their faction to produce large quantities of purifier, as a safety protocol. It’s helpful that even in the cataclysm, the ingredients required for purifier aren’t especially scarce.

[Catfoodbob]

now there needs to be an npc quest where they want purifyer cause they are horribly mutated… then further on they want to be a cat or something

[Darkfirephoenix]

snip

I’m for all that! Volunteer experimentation in a controlled environment with safeguards (purifier).

Now I imagine how you could secure a good supply of purifier/mutagen: Capture the slime Pit, build a wall around it and install a pump to get blob for getting the blob you need. The other chemicals are rather easy to get via chemical processes (ammonia and bleach).

That could lead to a “Slime pumping/harvesting plant” and a Chemical plant (ofc a slime pit is required for the slime pumping plant and a Chem plant could best be located near swamps/forests) for the direct supply. Also a farm could supply meat, feathers (from chicken) and daturas for the mutagen needs.
^That should cover nearly all mutagens (besides the lizard ones… mmaybe a lizard farm?)