Lars Andersen style archery

[ivan]

then make a “silencing kit” from a plastic chunk or piece of fur that can make it much quieter.

Though I’d weigh in on bows a bit.
There’s this other tricky subject on bows apart from noise that I remembered that could also be imlemented (although I’m no by any means an archer IRL beyound my childhood years so feel free to disagree)

Here’s the thing:
Much like in this video, modern bows have arrow rest on the left, which, for a rightie person, is across the bow from the drawing hand, so “reloading” is somewhat slow: you have to carry the arrow over the left hand and the bow.

A much faster way is to lay the arrow on the right side of the bow (which doesn’t work well modern “fancy” reflex-recurve-bbq bows because they already have the arrow rest on the left). Now, when I was a kid and my father taught me how to make a bow and shoot it (awww moment), this was the way I always did it, it’s very convenient, fast and has the advantage of having the arrow positioned in between your palms, which gives you a very good idea of where the arrow is pointed without even looking (we have a very dense innervation on our palms thus we feel our palms and their positioning very precisely)

Now, mubmo-jumbo aside, there’s this awesome dude Lars Andersen, a very fast and dextrous archer. He “rediscovered” some “ancient” techniques of archery which allows him to do crazy things (link coming up, read on) and how surprized I was to find that one of the most revolutionarly things he does is put the arrow on the right – which I always thought was the only way to go. Here’s the link, enjoy the awesomeness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk (how the hell do I embed a video? )

Now, what could be considered for CDDA:

• make bows reload faster at some very high level of archery skill (although bows are OP as they are)
• or, it could require reading a book of archery by Lars Andersen, would also be a nice in-game tribute to the guy
• simple long/short bows could be used for fast reloading as-is, while reflex-recurve would probably require like a “arrow rest conversion kit” or “lefty arrow rest”, “arrow rest side swap” – something like that.
• another thing he does is carry several arrows in the drawing hand. Both this and putting the arrow on the right side could be an alternative fighting style (like with meelee and martial arts) or an alternative shooting mode, much like burst fire: draw 3 arrows, shoot in quick succession, slower and less precise than shooting 1 arrow, but quicker than shooting 3 arrows one-by-one.

PS Again, real archery dudes, feel free to boo me for any misconceptions

[darktoes]

This is just my opinion, I’m not an expert either, but…
I’m noticing a lot of, shall we say, “tacti-cool” in that video. If this “holding all your arrows in your draw hand” is the most accurate and powerful way to shoot, why don’t Olympic archers do it? This guy seems to be shooting around 10-20m, while Olympic range is more like 70m.
He also clearly isn’t using a very high poundage bow, or he couldn’t draw it nearly that fast. In fact, I don’t think he even pulls to full draw. Looks like just a few inches most of the time. He seems to be using some sort of traditional recurve(ish) thing, nothing like modern high-power compounds, which is what hunters (whose primary concern is to kill a thing) use. I’ve had that discussion plenty, 2000 year old reflex bows simply cannot compare to a modern compound bow in terms of power.
He seems to be basing everything off of Eastern bows and methods, which isn’t necessarily wrong, but it’s a different beast to English/European bows and tactics. If you have 200 archers then you don’t need speed, accuracy at range is far more important in a large-scale battle, and you certainly don’t want to be flailing arrows around the whole time. If you can be accurate at long range, then your speed probably doesn’t matter.
He still stands still and takes his time when he shoots a long distance, and they did say he’s been doing this for years, so it’s not something you’d just pick up ingame, although that could be said for all the martial arts ingame.

Archery skill should definitely increase reload speed, that’s just a given.
An arrow rest is going to give you better power and accuracy, that’s a fact, at least with a fletched arrow. Drawing on the side of a long/short/reflex bow is a given, but it shouldn’t matter much which side you draw on and I certainly wouldn’t with a modern bow. Also, your palms are in the same position regardless of where the arrow rests, so it’s just going to come down to what you’re used to. Modern archers draw on the left because that way you can use a sight on the bow, which makes a huge difference at long range.
As an ingame martial art from a book… it could be interesting? A sort of Bow-Fu? Perhaps it cuts your accuracy substantially in exchange for faster firing? I don’t know if it would be useful or possible to implement, but it’s an interesting idea.

“Who can escape 10 arrows, fired quickly after another?” Well, you don’t need to if you run up and stab the guy. Or have a shield.

The best I can offer is a reality check: If this was the best way of shooting, why does nobody shoot like that anymore?

[ivan]

Well, you don’t need to if you run up and stab the guy. Or have a shield.

Yeah, that’s true, but that’s probably why they argue it’s a good thing to be able to shoot fast and in an agile manner - to not be completely useless against someone with a stabbing thing while at relatively close range. Also, e.g. archer on a horse (much like mongolian archers were, so yeah I see what you’re saying, he probably draws his stuff from the East) is a totally different story - gotta aim and shoot fast and mobility means one can afford closer ranges.

Also,

If you have 200 archers then you don’t need speed, accuracy at range is far more important in a large-scale battle

This is of course very true, strategically, when you have hoardes of archers which have a frontline of footman “tanks” or a castle wall to guard them from the stuff they’re shooting at. But then again, we’re dealing with the “one survivalist against zombies”, or “native american archer against someone from a rival tribe in a forest”, or probably just “hunting for something big and scary that’s not going down in 1 shot and will charge you” – I imagine there are situations where an archer doesn’t necessarily has the time nor the need to aim carefully for a very long shot. I think that’s the kind of thing that Lars fellow is aiming for (gah, the pun).

If this was the best way of shooting, why does nobody shoot like that anymore?

Well we don’t really encouner any of the situations that would require that. We only have the perfectly stationary olympic archery, or the hobbist hunter kind of thing which also is probably not something that would keep that kind of hardcore jackie-chan shooting Lars is doing alive as an art. But I imagine fighting feral runners probably would

Also, on an off note, I always wondered, why does the putting arrow on the other side of the bow matter for a bow with a sight? I mean, if you put both the rest and the sight on the right, wouldn’t that be just the same but afford you quicker “reload”? Like, what happens if you take a leftie bow and shoot it right-handed – is it not as accurate if shot that way?
Oh actually I think I just got it. It’s because you have to draw the sinew past your face, and that means you can’t really use a sight that’s mounted on the right, isn’t it. Took me long enough hahah

[darktoes]

I see your point, but you’re not getting nearly the full power of the bow if you only draw it a few inches like he does. If you’re getting charged by something or you’re surrounded, then you’re really not doing it right.

The way i see it, he’s using a bow like a pistol, and a bow is far more like a rifle. Considering zombies don’t go down in one hit, just peppering them with low power arrows will get you nowhere fast, especially when spears exist to fulfill the same role far better.

[kevin.granade]

Lars Andersen style archery has come up a number of times before, so I’ve looked into it.

tl;dr, how it would impact dda:

1. Lars-style shooting would be completely seperate from regular archery, they have roughly nothing to do with each other.
2. Lars-style shooting would use a shortbow and short arrows, and have a very rapid shooting style, but very low range and damage.
3. It could be treated as a martial art, especially in the interests of “unlocking” abilities, such as dodge bonuses while using it, holding arrows in off hand, etc.

The primary issue is he completely neglects power and treats all hts as equal, when that can’t be further from the truth. An arrow that hits at less than a critical momentum does basically nothing due to lack of ability to penetrate deep enough to cause a traumatic wound and/or bleeding.

I buy that his style would be effective within certain constraints, such as very close quarters and un-armored opponents (which btw includes most game, their thick hide and muscles effective act like armor, hence the convergence of hunting and warfare bows), but for what most people think of as archery (long range, high damage, armor penetration, quick kills), it’s basically useless.

[dissociativity]

how to nerf archery: bows including crossbows are nerfed while wet and while it’s raining

[Aluminumfoil]

I’ve seen one of Andersen’s videos. His historical claims are a mix of universally accepted obvious truths presented as novel discoveries, lies resulting from being a liar, and lies resulting from being an idiot.

He’s a great trick archer, which would make him a cool guy, if he weren’t a lying piece of pompous garbage.

[darktoes]

I just don’t see his style as being useful, at least ingame, when it would have so little power. At that point you’d be doing like 2 damage per shot. It might be worth looking at as a bionic/mutant martial art I.E it works so long as you know it but your damage is nerfed based on your strength, so you’d need 30 strength or so to still do full damage, at which point it becomes incredibly effective.

how to nerf archery: bows including crossbows are nerfed while wet and while it’s raining

That would be arguably realistic, but probably not much fun. Plus, most modern materials won’t care a lot about weather conditions.

I’ve seen one of Andersen’s videos. His historical claims are a mix of universally accepted obvious truths presented as novel discoveries, lies resulting from being a liar, and lies resulting from being an idiot.

Sounds right based on what I know.

[ivan]

not getting nearly the full power of the bow if you only draw it a few inches like he does

I’ve seen one of Andersen’s videos. His historical claims are a mix of universally accepted obvious truths presented as novel discoveries, lies resulting from being a liar, and lies resulting from being an idiot.

Sounds right based on what I know.

Absolutely, I see what you’re saying, but then, the hits that his shooting gets on the targets in the video don’t look harmless. But yeah, I see your point, I too got annoyed with all the “ancient” and “forgotten” and “reinventing” stuff, and the “a real archer must be this and that” that’s here and there in the video; stuff he does is not revolutionary or secret or whatever, but gotta say, whatever his personality is, he still seems pretty skilled, can’t take that away.

I just don’t see his style as being useful, at least ingame, when it would have so little power. At that point you’d be doing like 2 damage per shot.

Again from what my inexperienced eye sees on the videos, for something of human-like thickness and vitality, those types of shots could be lethal, easily. Given he (Lars) seems pretty dextrous, he could probably hit something in the head or heart, or at least a lung from across the room, for CDDA that would probably mean like 8-9 squares. I mean, I do understand what you’re saying about the power of the heavier bows drawn and aimed properly, but even with the sloppier aiming and the rudimentary kind of bow he’s using, he propably could one-shot a dog within 10 metres, c’mon, the guy can disect a flying arrow, even if that’s a setup of some kind – if not full-blown VFX trickery, that still requires some sharp shenanigans to pull off.

[darktoes]

It’s certainly cool and he’s clearly skilled, but he seems to be shooting soft foam targets with light arrows at short range and barely penetrating. If he tried to shoot anything like a person it’d probably hurt like hell at best, and bounce off normal clothing at worst.

My 50lb Compound can put a target arrow through a foot-thick hard foam target from 35 metres. That range at a hay bale it goes straight through. If I shot that at his range and targets (what they seem to be) It would go straight through.

For reference, 50lb is about what you’d want to hunt deer (from what I can find), and I’d say a person is somewhere around the density and size of a deer, so assume you’d need that to be reasonably lethal. English longbows start around 50lb too, so it’s a pretty good weight, and his looks like it’s somewhere between 10 and 20lb if you made me guess.

Point being, as a short-range tactic it might work. You might get really lucky and hit a neck artery and kill something living, but it won’t do anything to a zombie. In a zombie situation I’d much rather just get good with a spear.

Think of it like this: If he’s drawing back the bow a tiny amount, quickly, he’s not using very much strength, and he doesn’t look particularly muscular. If you use a tiny amount of strength, you won’t cause much damage to someone, even with a sharp object.

[ivan]

Ok I see now, thanks for the helpful info, that does clear the picture quite well. I guess now we wait and see if anyone else weighs in whether they’d like this kind of quick-n-weak archery in the game

[kuros]

Reality aside, I think Martial Arts books for bows would be cool, and I think that on some level, that should be sufficient reason for inclusion in a game.

Whether that style was named after this particular guy, or the theoretical “Zen Archery” that Eastern-themed RPGs always go on about, or actual Kyūdō…doesn’t really matter to me. I just vote for Archery MA to be added to the game. Because it would be cool.

[darktoes]

There’s really nothing you can do that would be martial arty with a bow aside from perhaps trying to parkour (should be a martial art itself) or trying to shoot really fast (doesn’t work in combat).

You could argue that archery is itself a martial art, and that’s technically true by a broad definition, but it would mean we’d have an archery martial art that does nothing because we’d still need the skill itself to progress.

[kevin.granade]

Kyūdō and “Zen archery” are essentially the same thing. Lars Andersen archery is something entirely different. Offhand the only other bow style I can think of is horse archery.

I could see adding Lars Andersen style, though I’m not clear on it actually being good in any way. I could see adding horse archery if we had horse riding.

[darktoes]

From what I can tell, Kyudo is more of a meditative exercise than a martial art. Everything I could find said that it was far more concerned with proper form and your focus than actually hitting the target, which is obviously going to be secondary in combat.

Horse archery isn’t going to be particularly different to normal archery, you just need to try to shoot accurately while riding a horse. Certainly a skill, but I wouldn’t call it a martial art and I can’t imagine what techniques it would have if it was.

There are a few vaguely different types of archery, but most styles are fairly similar and the differences are pretty small from style to style. That said, pretty much everyone just goes for what works for them, generally what they were taught first, and uses that regardless of it’s pros or cons. And that goes for all the different parts, what kind of bow you use, what kind of release/grip, what attachments, what stance, what method of drawing… It’s all down to the archer and what works for them. There really isn’t a “Best” way, and adding martial arts of any kind involving bows would just be gaminess for the sake of it.
Unless you’re going to bash someone over the head with an unstrung longbow. In which case I hope you apologise to whoever made it.

Also, as we’ve discussed already, I don’t think Lars Anderson’s style would be effective in combat in the slightest.

[darktoes]

Stumbled on this today. Didn’t watch it all the way through, not overly familiar with the guy, but from what I watched he seems to have a pretty good grasp of things and he covered some of the same things I did, namely that his draw weight is far too low for combat, he’s misrepresenting his targets, and that there’s no “correct” way to do archery.