Curious about people’s opinion about the change on the knife spear to FRAGILE_MELEE


#41

I’m totally lost on whatever you saying. Can you show a picture or something of the end product to give a better idea?


#42

So, basically an ironshod quarterstaff with a blade on?


#43

see https://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Spear

Instead of socketing the knife by cutting a shelf in the stick and tying the knife to the shelf, he’s suggesting taking a short length of pipe and nailing it to the stick (like the wikihow suggests for a store bought spear head) and then shaping the pipe to be an improvised spike.

There really should be a range of improvised, low end spears, starting with “tied a spike to a long stick” and advancing to “improvised a metal socket and nailed that to the stick”. The first couple would be fragile, the later ones not.


#44

Those 3 methods are extremely basic, and could be done with any sharp bit of metal, right?


#45

Well, the first one is Pointy Stick, which is in the game. The second one is the actual Knife Spear.

The third recipe would be a new add. It would require a heavy stick, a spike, nails, and a hammer. I’m not really sure what the design philosophy is regarding what craft recipes should and shouldn’t be added to the game.


#46

I think it’s a pipe instead of spike.


#47

When I’m off work, I’ll go make 1 and take pictures


#48

It’s a bit of an old thread, but it got me to make an account on the forum. I’m mostly replying to the points made in the discussion. I don’t have a strong opinion on this specific nerf as I haven’t played the game enough.

I’ve just started playing the game and given how many times I’ve died already, I would say the game is pretty hard on default settings for new players. There seem to be plenty of ways to dial up the difficulty for veterans.

I haven’t been able to craft a knife spear yet. I have played the game for about 10 hours, but not surviving long enough or getting the right materials. I suppose I’m playing with the nerfed version, I don’t know how to check.

But I have been burned in the past with games nerfing things “for realism” while they were mostly armchair warriors with very subjective ideas. In the end it’s still a game, and realism usually isn’t a fun game and almost impossible to capture in a few numbers. In my view you need quite an advanced physics simulation before any realism claims make sense, like the detail level some racing games simulate cars.
I’ve seen a lot of cases were nerfs have been to harsh and had to be (partially) reverted later, or just didn’t address the underlying problem to begin with.

As for spears, or more generally pole weapons: Those seem to have been the most popular type of main weapon all across the world until about the seventeen hundreds. Their main drawbacks are mostly relevant in a civil society, making them even better in the zombie apocalypse.

Matt Easton from Scola Gladiatoria makes a lot of good videos about all kinds of melee weapons, this one might fit the discussion:

My main reason to vote against the nerf would be that it now seems to be to weak to be useful if I understand the comments. An item only useful to level your crafting doesn’t seem like the best game design.

Crafting in real life is hard and requires a lot of time, materials and attempts to master, but that’s not fun in a game either if you simulate that in too much detail. See for example this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA3lIuN_zVE
As such the crafting in the game should mostly represent the successful attempts or it becomes really tedious. It should yield useful items.

My point is that realism is often a poor advisor for good game design.


#49

Spears aren’t that common in real life? I’ve seen vids of tribal people isolated from civilization throwing spears at helicopters. -_-


#50

Pretty sure he’s saying that spears are common, but not just because they’re easy to make.


#51

All the components are available from the starting shelter.


#52

If you start from a shelter get a rock from outside and wield it. Bash a locker to pieces with the rock and tear down a curtains. Now you can make a makeshift crowbar to open windows less noisily. If you don’t have a cutting tool, disassemble a long string and make a stone knife. To make a knife-spear, cut a sheet for rags and make a spike from the locker remains. If you made a stone knife you have to tear down another curtains for a long string and for a heavy stick.


#53

I just started to using knife spear, i never used before. It is very… comfortable and safe. :smiley: I used to wield a crowbar to save inventory volume and set bushes on fire to kill zombies.

Also it being fragile is not a real problem - most of the time - you can disassemble it and make a new one from its parts in perfect condition.


#54

Not that surprising, one would think that that thing is slowly disassembling itself while you are poking zombies with it. :smiley:


#55

Knife spear pretty good to start out with. By day 2, just replace it with a wooden spear. A little less damage, but lasts for a long while.


#56

I’ve been lured into this game by Quill18, and he started as a student at a school, so that’s what I’ve tried as well as it seemed a fun scenario.

I died 4 times, but the 5th time I made it out of the school (with some books!).
I almost froze and died of thirst and hunger the first two days, even ate a bobburger to stay alive.
Then I reached the mansion and live has been a lot easier with a broadsword and a decorative armor.


#57

to me the whole knife spear discussion just sounds like there is a recipe missing. I think there should be an easy to craft fragile one, and a harder to craft better one, something like what Matt is wielding, but not as good as the awl pike.


#58

There are so many spear variants it isn’t funny: sharpened rebar, wooden spear, forked spear, copper spear, steel spear, pipe spear, qiang, halberd, glaive, naginata, survivor naginata, pitchfork, awl pike, knife spear, homemade halfpike…

Wood spears and forked spears can be made at Fabrication 2, Survival 1 and aren’t fragile, and copper spears and halfpikes require Fabrication 3 and Survival 1 and are perfectly decent weapons.


#59

I think forked Spears also have the fragile melee tag now. Or am I mistaken?


#60

You’re right. Make wood spears then. Fabrication 2, Survival 1 is trivial to grind.