Clothing Realism

[Zoev]

I love this game, I really do. I started playing back in 0.A and it’s only gotten better and better. Realism in regards to surivival, fabrication and gunpowder have only made the game better. However there is one skill that has been missed.

Tailoring.

I don’t know where the default tailoring speed came from but it’s crazy fast. I make all my own clothing and gear by handsewing and I play cata sometimes just to marvel at how fast the PC is with a needle and thread. For example, cargo shorts in the game take ~30minutes to make. The average time it takes me to sew up a pair of cargo shorts, using whole fabric, is around four hours. Strong stitches, and hemming material take time. Let alone cutting, measuring and bits like buttons and zippers. A simple tshirt usually takes me 1.5-2hrs. Leather however, is a demon. Each sewn hole needs to be drilled with an awl. Knife sheaths take me about 1-3hrs to make, depending upon size.
I think making the sewing times more realistic would firstly limit the massive boot the tailoring skill gives the player, and secondly encourage more scavenging.

How to fix this:
All cloth based sewing should be multiplied by 5
Leather based sewing (I’m assuming each kit has an awl) should be multiplied by 7
Tailoring exp increased by a multiple of 5
Reparing/fitting time increased by 3
Things like shemaghs, handwraps and turbans should stay what they are as no sewing is involved.

What do you think?

[kevin.granade]

I’m in favor of making the times more realistic in general, the current numbers simply haven’t been reexamined with realism in mind.
I’m a little concerned that such long durations will make people avoid tailoring, but it’s so useful that it’s probably fine.
any thoughts on mending time?

[Zoev]

My numbers in the previous post were just reserached guesses. Testing should help out. Maybe there will be more feedback on here? I think the original times were based off of an industrial sewing machine all set and ready to go.

Mending time should possibly be multipled by 2. Usually mending clothing for me is gathering it up and sewing it shut, or patching it in really damaged cases. However since the game registers mending as different steps depending on levels this seems like it doesn’t need such the hike. I wish the mending/reenforcing time was based on the size of the garmet, but I understand that may be due to engine limitations.

I do really think it will help prevent the establish base, gather mountains of fabric, max tailoring skill. Armor is very important in this game so taking two or three days of sewing to get a full set of surivivor armor is kinda breaking things. I really think this game shines when the PC is running around trying to find things to modify.

I’ve worked with nomex breifly, sews up just like cotton. Never with kevlar though.

Seriously though, leather clothing in under an hour? No way. I have to work myself up to deal with leather. Using an awl takes forever. Drill holes, resharpen, clean holes, sew.

Oh! Furs, probably x6. They usually don’t NEED an awl, but can be forced through with a sturdy enough needle.

Another interesting thing is that the rags unit the game uses would have to be hemmed and sewn together individually, which would take a crazy amount of time. I just prefer to think my character grabbed the clothing and is cutting out the scraps that best fit what he needs. Keeps things simple and from getting too crazy. It is a game after all. ^^

[Random_dragon]

I can agree that the times could be messed with, yeah. Also? Unlike in reality, I’ve never bent a sewing needle from with tough material in Catalcym. Note also that sewing time should likely be affected by material thickness. Have found it awkward patching a split in an old pair of boots I’ve had for years, but it was doable due to the leather being fairly thin where the damage is.

For more realism points…repairing damaged waterproof gear, especially boots. Depending on where the damage is, how severe it is, and how you fix it, you might permanently lose that delicious watertightness. :V

[RADIALTHRONE1]

So, should we make electric/battery sewing machines a thing for faster tailoring times then?

[Random_dragon]

Could be useful, but that’d need to take both thread and batteries.

[Zoev]

If we did the sewing machine could speed up sewing time but would use up far more thread. Because of the sewing machine stich you’ll end up using between two and three times more thread than if you were hand sewing.

I’ve assumed the sewing kit in game (or the bone needle my character always uses) contains a few different needles, an awl, and a naelbinding needle of sorts (along with thread of course). I don’t think wear and tear should be invovled here as it isn’t for any other crafting skill. I must say that as an already existing balance, I’ve never destroyed a garmet I’ve tried to repair, just wasted a lot of thread.

Great point on waterproof clothing. I’ve only ever repaired it with copious amounts of sealant to support the new holes caused by the threads.

I do think your point on thickness of material would be far superior to just number buffs but wouldn’t that call for a lot more coding? (I completely agree with you on shoes, I usually just treat mine like leather and drill holes with an awl.) Armor would also then be more balanced because sewing up a wool hoodie would be far easier than trying to make a leather jacket.

I do think cloaks currently have a realistic time to make. Assuming that rags are just a unit (as explained above) all you really need to make a cloak is to cut out a rectangle or semi-circle and hood, hem and you’re good. It’s incredibly simple. Also I was thinking of a blanket cloak recipe. A lvl0 skill comprising of a blanket and a long string. (I know buttons or pebbles are needed to secure it but no other clothing in cata uses them).

Also why are sleeping bags reversible? It’s an easy way to get tons of skill, sew up, take apart, repeat.

[i2amroy]

Honestly I think the biggest thing that we need here is just data on how long it takes to make enough things that we can start to interpolate everything else. I mean personally I don’t sew, and I don’t really know anyone who sews with a needle and thread (as opposed to a sewing machine), so I can’t start guessing at numbers with any sort of factual accuracy.

[Lesseps]

My wife’s clothes designer and she has her own atellier. She said ordinary skirt usually takes near 2 hours if it’s simple (no pockets) using sewing machine. Pockets are really complicating element. Pockets take much longer to cut out properly.
So I’m totally with OP here. We can keep fantastic bonuses tailoring provide but we might think about making it more realistic to balance bonuses out.
Update: not to mention that she has like 5 years experience. Beginners will struggle with simple items even longer.

[Zoev]

Thank for the agreement. I looked at my notebook for recent sewing projects to give some estimated times. Pockets take a ton of work, between hemming the sides, and the closure method and attaching them.

Sheath, knife, leather 2.3hrs
Linen t-shirt 2.1hrs
Repairing sandal strap 12min
Haversack, wool, 3.7hrs
Floopy linen hat (boonie-ish) 3.2hrs
Pouch, ultility 2.1hrs
Pouch small 2.2hrs
shemagh (hemmed) 1.7hrs
Wool winter hat 1.5hrs
Sheath knife, small, 1.8hrs
Shorts from pants 1.1hrs
Repairing tshirt 16min
Cargo shorts 6.3hrs
Backpack, canvas, 5.7hrs

I hope that helps!

[SioxGWolf]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:2, topic:10445”]I’m in favor of making the times more realistic in general, the current numbers simply haven’t been reexamined with realism in mind.
I’m a little concerned that such long durations will make people avoid tailoring, but it’s so useful that it’s probably fine.
any thoughts on mending time?[/quote]
On the point of adding realism,you can defiantly add options for it, allowing the person to tailor the game into something they’ed rather enjoy. It is a game after all, and the more you let the player change how the game is, what they seek to play, the more they can enjoy it. As for default,I can go either way myself.