Circular distance

No, it’s not a bug report, or a complain.

I just wonder, the default option for this is OFF, but I always enable this, because well, it’s better for the sake of gameplay.

Set it to ON by default, to let be sure people use it ! :smiley:

Any thought about this ?

I agree. I use this myself too, and I can’t think of a single reason why it would ever make sense to have diagonals being equally distant.

[quote=“Rekozg”]I play squares, because otherwise diagonal moves are disadvantageous to orthogonal moves.

my argument:
You stay in the same place longer before you are moving away, giving enemies more opportunities to hit you - and even after moving away, you still in a bad position because the enemy could still interact with tile you are on - one attack plus one orthogonal move for the zombie takes less time than for you to move a diagonal square. This would be all good and well if it would work both ways, but I have yet to see a zombie running away from me.

So, I stick with square distance 'cause it’s more game-y IMO.[/quote]

Well, well.
I don’t really understand the point of “disadvantagous” - enemies fallow the same rules as you. best strat was and is to stay at a shock point, whatever it could be that slow down, so when you sit down and bash what come to you, it’s better to get this option ON if you do that (they move slower in diagonal, allowing more hit).
And about the fact you get hit, i just don’t understand. It happen only if he can reach you with a “normal” movement while you have done a “diagonal” movement (saying both you and him got same speed), and more, they tend to try to be by your side instead of your corner, so most of the time they will do a diagonal movement if you do one - so nothing change. I say, if both get same speed, because in other case, it’s obvious that the problem isn’t from this option, it could happen with this on or off.

I don’t think the option should be on by default, but I do use it simply because it otherwise you basically have this exploit where in as long as you are moving diagonally you are moving like 25% faster than anything that dosn’t move diagonally, (although I’m inclined to believe your moving closer to 200% faster, but my thinking on trigonometry tells me otherwise).

This also works the other way around too. So if you are running away from an enemy, your enemy will often run diagonally, at least some of the time. With circular distance off, they are basically gaining massive ground on you whenever they move diagonally towards you.

[quote=“Rekozg”]The zombie just moved next to you, depleting some of his action points.
You want to move away, because there is more zombies behind it,
and you have just got out of the evac shower shelter and don’t
want to meet them on open ground.
Every red tile you move, you are going to get hit at least once
in the next two turns, or find yourself in the same situation.
So if you don’t want to get hit, the optimal path is moving north.
With circular distances off, you have two more options.
It doesn’t seem much but it bugged the hell out of me.[/quote]
Wa-a-ait. How is that possible that zombies get increased range with “circular distance” on? Zombies can attack only 8 tiles around. In your situation, zombie won’t be able to move(except you’re super injured) and attack you, making three upper tiles safe, regardless of options.

The issue is that when you move, it will take something like 150 movement points on circular distance to go diagonally, during those 150 MP, if your base movespeed is less than 150, the Zombie is guaranteed to get a turn, and will be capable of attacking you.

As I understand it; Assuming a movespeed of 100 (the standard), you’ll move, spending your entire move pool and causing your turn to end, but you won’t have spent all the movement points necessary to leave the tile, which means you stay in the same position until everything else has acted. The next turn will cause you to go into the next tile and leave you with 50 movement points remaining, making diagonal distances average out 2 tiles for every 3 turns.

Whaaaaat? I would like a dev comment here. Surely circular or square view has zero bearing on MP required for diagonal movement. It is purely a ‘field-of-view’ setting.

It’s not purely a view thing, quoth the setting in game “If true, the game will calculate range in a realistic way: Light sources will be circles diagonal movement will cover more ground and take longer. If disabled, everything is square: moving to the northwest corner of a building takes as long as moving to the north wall.” (Emphasis mine.)
I’m not quite sure on the actual movement point costs, but circular distance DOES have a mechanical effect.

No need a dev comment, it doesn’t work like this.
It change all movement cost, by adding arround 41% at the final cost of movement
base math, √(100²+100²) = 141

Everything after this assume that you are a bit slowed, because if you aren’t you won’t be catch by a Z : They need 143 per move, you need 141 !
First, when you act, You act, Then you wait for the action point needed. You always do your action whatever it’s movement or attack.
if you don’t trust me, think about this :
0- you say “i want to move”.
A Z is standing nearby you.
0- he say "i want to reach you/attack you"
If, someone would need to spend the movement point before doing the movement,
0- Z try to attack you
100- you move
100+ - z fail his attack because out or range

This never happened !

Another example :
0-You are waiting
0- Z move toward you
100- you finish waiting (can be less, depend what u’v done right before)
100- you attack the Z, and hit him, killing him.
143- Z finish his move, and change his square . DAFUCK ?

This never happened !

The ONLY way to being hit in this case, is that if you do a diagonal movement (150) while he do a normal movement (100, but for a z it’s way more, they have a speed of 70, so it will be something around 143 if i’m not too much stupid), allowing them to move then hit you
0- you move
0 he move
143 - he hit you
150 - you can act again

Well, i understand your point now. But i always tought that playing a turn per turn tactical-like game would always mean stuff like this.

(also, a really easy way to avoid being hit, his to move a bit in a normal way before trying to move in diagonal, so you will earn more “time” between you and him. more, if he isn’t alone, other guys behind will move in diagonal because they are packed while you more in a normal way, so they will be even more slowed)

ps: I believe that even if I’m wrong with some parts of this, it shouldn’t be far from what we got in game. I also understand that you understand my point, or well at last i believe.
And if i try what u’v sayd for 5 min, shower victime (115 speed, bare feet) i never get hit but one time after moving two time in diagonal (down left, then down right) while he only go down, but it was a lunge attack.

Yeah of course, just wanted to know other think of it;)

Circular distance?!


[size=8pt]Note that I’m not, in any way, serious.[/size]

Yes, moving away diagonally while you’re being attacked will indeed give the attackers more chances to hit you. Also, with square distances you can actually exclusively move diagonally, and not be any slower than if you moved orthogonally. Example:

x x x
 x x

As you can see, both movement patterns get you 4 tiles to the right, cost the same, and the former has the advantage of throwing enemies off your trail. Hardly any reason not to move diagonally with square distances. Honestly, I consider this to be more “gamebreaking” than the issue with circular distance, which is really minor.

I always have circular distance on.

Why the hell wouldn’t you? Everything looks a lot nicer and the movement is more realistic.

First, the reason “square” or “roguelike” distance is the default. It’s because it’s “traditional” for roguelikes, so for roguelike players (which we expect to be most of our audience) will be less less surprised by it.

There’s one possible misunderstanding here, when you move you immediately spend the moves, even if it takes your balance negative, so you don’t wait in the square before you have enough turns to take the action.
So in this scenario:

[quote=“Rekozg”]The zombie just moved next to you, depleting some of his action points.
You want to move away, because there is more zombies behind it,
and you have just got out of the evac shower shelter and don’t
want to meet them on open ground.
Every red tile you move, you are going to get hit at least once
in the next two turns, or find yourself in the same situation.
So if you don’t want to get hit, the optimal path is moving north.
With circular distances off, you have two more options.
It doesn’t seem much but it bugged the hell out of me.
Frail+shower victim, your every move matters,
and it forces you to accept the “let unlive and live” philosophy.[/quote]
Assumptions, player has speed 100, zombie has speed 70, player starts at move = 0.
What actually happens is:
Zombie moves next to you, ending its’ turn. (lets say it has moves = 0 to keep it simple)
Player turn starts(+100) and moves away diagonally(-141 moves), ending your turn at -41 move.
Zombie turn starts (+70), (moves = 70) and moves horizontally or vertically(-100), ending its’ turn at -30 move.
Player gets +100 move, (59)and moves again diagonally, ending turn at -82.
Zombie turn starts (+70, 40 total), and moves diagonally, ending turn at -101 moves.
The zombie won’t even get a move the next turn, letting the player widen their lead.

There MIGHT be a corner case in there that lets the zombie get a hit in, but in the general case, the zombie is going to be forced to spend its turns just keeping up long enough for the player to make it throuh the turn without being hit. Now if you move in such a way that the zombie can cut the corner and move less distance than you did, you might be in trouble, but that’s a tactical issue.

Neither mode is perfect, but both are internally consistent and apply the same to the player and monsters. As has been pointed out, roguelike distance is slightly more exploitable. We keep it around because it’s traditional, and because it’s fairly trivial to support both.

@Kevin Granade
thx for the reply :slight_smile:

That was an interesting read. Circular not being the default option wasn’t surprising to me for the reason Kevin has pointed out, if you play the more traditional rogue-likes like NetHack - moving diagonally is a VERY important tactic. Some say it’s a exploit and not very realistic, I agree with that but it’s a “tradition” in rogue-likes.

Personally, I turn on Circular distance though :wink:

I don’t think it would be an issue even if you both had the exact same speed. You’re right, that it would be tactically advantageous for the zombie in your scenario to just go north and slap you after you move away diagonally, but as far as I can tell, AI simply doesn’t do that. If you move diagonally away from a zombie, it will do the same move.