So apparently canning is one of those things you don’t want to try to reinvent yourself but rather stick to recipes that are known not to poison people because botulism. Given that this is the case, would it be a good idea to add a new canning cookbook and switch canning recipes from autolearn to book-learn? Or, possibly, instead of a canning cookbook, attach canning recipes to one of the existing cookbooks?
Having them in a new cookbook would be nice for only canning recipes, and add them to family_cookbook as well, as it’s VERY likely they’d be found there.
Speaking of canning, pickles (and growing cucumbers). Why is there none? Even pickled veggy recipe doesn’t have them (and has potatoes, for some reason).
Good idea. I should put at least some of the “simpler” canning recipes in there. Probably canning fruit, veggies, and tomatoes, and maybe broth and bone broth too. The meats, pickling, and soups I might save for a more focused book, if anyone thinks it’s a good idea.
Speaking of canning, pickles (and growing cucumbers). Why is there none? Even pickled veggy recipe doesn't have them (and has potatoes, for some reason).
There are a number of omitted crops that could stand to be included, IMO. I might make a post in the Lab about it and see if this can be fixed in JSON.
Pickling should DEFINITELY go into family cookbook, it’s one of the easiest, along with tomatoes, and warranted due to different taste. I’ve never seen, much less heard, about pickling broths or meat, so those are more likely to be in specialized cookbook.
Pickling should DEFINITELY go into family cookbook, it’s one of the easiest, along with tomatoes, and warranted due to different taste. I’ve never seen, much less heard, about pickling broths or meat, so those are more likely to be in specialized cookbook.[/quote]
Point noted and taken. I’ll take these into account if the devs are OK with the idea of moving canning recipes to cookbooks.
I’m fine with this.
I’m fine with this.[/quote]
It makes me happy that the Great Zombie Overlady approves of my plans.
Botulism is only a danger in low-acid canning(i.e foods that don’t have a lot of acid), as bacteria can’t grow in high-acid, high-sugar, high-salt and dry environments. Hence why you can see pastries held at room temp. Canning stuff like pickles and the like shouldn’t require a recipe, but canning stuff like meat, fish, soups, and mushrooms canned in water.
Pickling something is way safer than canning something like a pre-made meal.
[quote=“Frostwood, post:8, topic:8801”]Botulism is only a danger in low-acid canning(i.e foods that don’t have a lot of acid), as bacteria can’t grow in high-acid, high-sugar, high-salt and dry environments. Hence why you can see pastries held at room temp. Canning stuff like pickles and the like shouldn’t require a recipe, but canning stuff like meat, fish, soups, and mushrooms canned in water.
Pickling something is way safer than canning something like a pre-made meal.[/quote]
What if high-acid environment is combined with high-salt one?
What about soups that are inherently acidic?
[quote=“Barhandar, post:9, topic:8801”][quote=“Frostwood, post:8, topic:8801”]Botulism is only a danger in low-acid canning(i.e foods that don’t have a lot of acid), as bacteria can’t grow in high-acid, high-sugar, high-salt and dry environments. Hence why you can see pastries held at room temp. Canning stuff like pickles and the like shouldn’t require a recipe, but canning stuff like meat, fish, soups, and mushrooms canned in water.
Pickling something is way safer than canning something like a pre-made meal.[/quote]
What if high-acid environment is combined with high-salt one?
What about soups that are inherently acidic?[/quote]
Depends on the soup-for soups I think a cookbook should be used for something less simple like soups. Take a cream of tomato soup-ordinarly you would think that this would be an acidic soup, but cream is a base, so it neutralizes some of the acid, making the soup more likely to grow bacteria.
Note that its the sterilization of the “can” and the contents that prevent bacteria from entering. Botulism is a anaerobic bacteria-it grows only in airless environments, so if you haven’t sterilized the contents of the can, then you are in trouble. Another dangerous combination for Botulism is infusing a oil with flavour, such as the classic olive oil mixed with garlic- the oil creates an airless environment, which allows Botulism to grow.]
Note that once food is in the “danger zone”(4 Degrees Celsius to 60 Degrees Celsius), you have what is known as “lag time”, in which you have 4 hours before bacteria starts to grow at an exponential rate. We cooks usually call it the “four hour” rule.
The combination of acid/salt/sugar/dryness doesn’t matter as long as the food item in question has on of these quantities at a sufficient level.
All right, I’m mulling over which canning recipes should go in a specialised book, which should go in the family cookbook, and which should be autolearn. Making summer-food preserves for winter–canned fruit, maybe canned veggies, canned tomatoes, yada yada–seems like stuff that’d be in the family cookbook, but at least some of them would fall into the “acidic” category, which begs the question of whether they should be autolearn instead. Pickling seems like it could be autolearn if we’re assuming any given PC can grasp that vinegar is a preserving agent, or family cookbook otherwise.
And of course, the specialised canning book would have all the canning recipes (that aren’t CANnibal recipes, at least, har har) that aren’t autolearn. The question is which to leave in autolearn and which should also be in the family cookbook, if any.
I’ve not tasted an actually acidic tomato soup, and add cream right before consumption - it would be kinda silly to add it on making, what with milk bacteria being very active.
I was thinking more sorrel soup, which is sour with a little salt (and sorrel itself can be canned for an eternity in a sterilized jar).
[quote=“AllisonW, post:11, topic:8801”]All right, I’m mulling over which canning recipes should go in a specialised book, which should go in the family cookbook, and which should be autolearn. Making summer-food preserves for winter–canned fruit, maybe canned veggies, canned tomatoes, yada yada–seems like stuff that’d be in the family cookbook, but at least some of them would fall into the “acidic” category, which begs the question of whether they should be autolearn instead. Pickling seems like it could be autolearn if we’re assuming any given PC can grasp that vinegar is a preserving agent, or family cookbook otherwise.
And of course, the specialised canning book would have all the canning recipes (that aren’t CANnibal recipes, at least, har har) that aren’t autolearn. The question is which to leave in autolearn and which should also be in the family cookbook, if any.[/quote]
Probably should keep it simple(real vs fun), and have pickling autolearn while canning be learned through a cookbook, probably something like ‘preserving food’, with some of the simpler recipes leaking on to ‘cooking on a budget’.
[quote=“Barhandar, post:12, topic:8801”]I’ve not tasted an actually acidic tomato soup, and add cream right before consumption - it would be kinda silly to add it on making, what with milk bacteria being very active.
I was thinking more sorrel soup, which is sour with a little salt (and sorrel itself can be canned for an eternity in a sterilized jar).[/quote]v
As a cook I have, usually due to someone adding to much crushed tomatoes(or tomato paste). As for sorrel soup, I’ve actually never that type before, but most of the recipes on web seem to imply that it’s a cream-based soup. Its one of those things I would know by taste whether it would be acidic/salty enough, due to experience in cooking.
Same as tomatoes - it tastes better with sour cream, but it’s very much not made with any dairy, it’s added to plates when eating. And if someone forces sour cream into it for everyone… I pity their poor souls.
Good idea on pickling vs. canning. Though I’ve got my own ideas for the name of the canning book, and I was actually thinking of taking Barhandar’s advice and putting the simpler canning recipes in the family cookbook specifically. Do modern cookbooks focused on cooking in general actually have canning recipes that often? If so, I might change that.
Also, now I’m considering moving the sausage recipe into a cookbook, because apparently improperly prepared sausage can also pose a botulism risk (it’s even named after sausage). After actually looking up sausage, though, I’m seeing a lot of overlap with things like smoked meats and pickled meats, which makes me wonder if sausage being a distinct recipe is still needed. (Though if I touch it, it should probably only be to move the recipe into books, anyway.)
[quote=“AllisonW, post:15, topic:8801”]Good idea on pickling vs. canning. Though I’ve got my own ideas for the name of the canning book, and I was actually thinking of taking Barhandar’s advice and putting the simpler canning recipes in the family cookbook specifically. Do modern cookbooks focused on cooking in general actually have canning recipes that often? If so, I might change that.
Also, now I’m considering moving the sausage recipe into a cookbook, because apparently improperly prepared sausage can also pose a botulism risk (it’s even named after sausage). After actually looking up sausage, though, I’m seeing a lot of overlap with things like smoked meats and pickled meats, which makes me wonder if sausage being a distinct recipe is still needed. (Though if I touch it, it should probably only be to move the recipe into books, anyway.)[/quote]
My main source of reference for cooking is the book called Professional Cooking, which doesn’t have any canning recipes, but does go into how to make your mother sauces(Brown, Red, White, Hollandaise, velouté), cutting meat, sausages, pastries, cutting techniques, and how to make a lot of food in a reasonable period of time. Not a lot on preserving foods, as the emphasis on cooking now is more on freshness. So, like brewing it would need its own cookbook.
I prefer Professional Cooking to other cookbooks at work because what a lot of home cooks don’t realize is a lot of home recipes have small errors in them, that don’t matter when you are making a recipe for 4-10, but when you 50x that recipes that small error becomes 50 times bigger.
[quote=“Frostwood, post:16, topic:8801”]My main source of reference for cooking is the book called Professional Cooking, which doesn’t have any canning recipes, but does go into how to make your mother sauces(Brown, Red, White, Hollandaise, velouté), cutting meat, sausages, pastries, cutting techniques, and how to make a lot of food in a reasonable period of time. Not a lot on preserving foods, as the emphasis on cooking now is more on freshness. So, like brewing it would need its own cookbook.
I prefer Professional Cooking to other cookbooks at work because what a lot of home cooks don’t realize is a lot of home recipes have small errors in them, that don’t matter when you are making a recipe for 4-10, but when you 50x that recipes that small error becomes 50 times bigger.[/quote]
Cooking would use the products, though, not make them, so it’s to be expected.
Errors like what? Care to provide a few examples?
Joy Of Cooking is my go-to and there’s a fair amount on canning. Not as much for sausage but there’s probably something–it’s very into a kitchen and cook that can do just about anything.
[quote=“Barhandar, post:17, topic:8801”]Cooking would use the products, though, not make them, so it’s to be expected.
Errors like what? Care to provide a few examples?[/quote]
A lot of cookbooks and recipes do things by volume rather than weight, which isn’t a big deal when you are doing them for a smaller quantity but can add up. Take a common offender such as flour for instance-over time flour can settle, and doing something like measuring out a cup of flour can give you a different amount of flour, which can lead to disasters in baking with large batches as you can have too much flour or not enough-most professional bakers use scales.
An example I ran into all the time is Yorkshire Puddings, where if you add too little flour, your Yoyos(as we called them), would collapse or if you added too much flour or too little water or milk, you get… muffins. When I first started out making them I didn’t weigh the flour, water and eggs, so the results would be inconsistent, and when I did, I would get good results every time, and every week I would have to make between 124-400(if it was wedding season) yorkshire puddings.
Soup recipes I would use would be in lbs- rather than having a recipe that calls for 4 Onions, the recipe would call for 4lbs. of Onions. It makes sense when you think about it because every onion, potato, celery would have different sizes.[quote=“KA101, post:18, topic:8801”]Joy Of Cooking is my go-to and there’s a fair amount on canning. Not as much for sausage but there’s probably something–it’s very into a kitchen and cook that can do just about anything.[/quote]
Joy of Cooking covers a lot of subjects, and is one of my favorite home cookbooks.
Oh boy. Uhm. This is complicated.
Getting down to brass tacks on where to put the recipes for canned goods and sausage. Here’s what I’ve got so far:
sealed jar of canned meat – canning book
sealed jar of canned fish – canning book
sealed jar of soylent slices – To Serve Man
sealed jar of canned veggy – family cookbook, canning book
sealed jar of canned fruit – family cookbook, canning book
sealed jar of canned tomato – family cookbook, canning book
sealed jar of pickled vegetable – autolearn
sealed jar of pickled meat – autolearn
sealed jar of pickled fish – autolearn
sealed jar of pickled human flesh – To Serve Man
sealed jar of woods soup – canning book
sealed jar of meat soup – canning book
sealed jar of fish soup – canning book
sealed jar of vegetable soup – canning book
sealed jar of sap soup – To Serve Man
sealed jar of broth – canning book
sealed jar of bone broth – canning book
sausage – family cookbook, Cucina Italiana
Is there anything else I should put in the family cookbook and/or Cooking on a Budget? Should I scrap the canning cookbook idea entirely and just put all the canning recipes in existing books?