Balancing the game

Game Talk The Drawing Board
81

Better? That depends on who you ask. Apparently most people here just like silly wacky roleplaying, they could give less of a shit about balance.

I just call it how I see it. You all want to balance DDA, maybe tone down the weird nerd stuff. You’re just taking the entire project back to square one.

Why bother? Whales is already making a cataclysm that’s more balanced. We don’t need one Cataclysm 2 done with Whales sleek new code and one with DDA’s rustbucket code. I think I’m starting to realize that it’s the crazy atmosphere of DDA that might be its future. And maybe if you don’t take it too seriously it’s not so bad, after all you have options now.

Just calm down. Whales is bringing a balanced Cataclysm 2, and for everyone who likes running around as sexy magic kitsune maid cyborg with a flaming zweihander there will be DDA. Everyone wins.[/quote]

Cool, take Clayton with you on your way out if you love Cata 2 then. You can both be happier that way and not need to worry about the horrifying future that’s oh so clearly going to happen despite objections from the devs.

82

what is really frustrating me is how much more potential this game has. It is possible that this perceived potential can not be achieved because technical difficulties, but the devs say it can, given time and effort they are willing to put in. That’s why i am also willing to at least add whatever ideas pass through my mind and debate them here on the forum. Because i expect more from this game.
I don’t like some things about the game. I like others. If we can find what most of the people here dislike most, let’s eliminate (or limit) those, without tantrums or threats or drama. Let’s improve on what most people think is better.
I hope this is what this thread is about. Mostly :slight_smile:

83

You need to chill too dragon guy. No need to get all hostile at me. Cataclysm 2 isn’t your enemy, I think it’s what going to finally kill the constant bickering around here.

The point is we have options. People have, more or less, two major ideas about what Cataclysm should be. Some people want this and some want that. Cataclysm 2 is just as “legit” as DDA. No one will complain that they have to make a mod to remove the parts of the game they don’t like. That means less bullshit around here and more harmonious discussion.

Like hey, now that there’s Cataclysm 2 I don’t really care about elf-a or whatever. Hell, I wouldn’t care if wizards or titty monsters or whatever happens now because that’s just what DDA is. DDA isn’t the only thing that defines Cataclysm anymore so I’m cool with it. I used to be worried it would be taking the original game in a bad direction but that doesn’t really matter any more. Less angst from us means more fun times for you.

Cataclysm is split into two camps but that doesn’t mean war man. It could be the best thing that’s happened here in a while. We will have a serious cataclysm for challenge and a easy going one for roleplay. It could be like yin and yang man. Ebony and Ivory, you know?

84

Suggestion for threads, try and keep them focussed on one specific thing. If you’re talking about something super nebulous like game balance you have an uphill fight already, if you mix in arguments about realism or game tone it’s just going to make it harder to get any kind of consensus going.

85

Binky, I think you’re treading into dangerous territory by trying to change main-game things (well, you’d be fine if you were just putting in MOAR!! of things, but limiting/removing seems dangerous business around here). I was hoping hard we’d get a kinda’ dev-signed-off-on document or three that’d give us some blueprints to everything, but I think real life got in the way. Plus hey, maybe the devs just don’t all agree, like we on the forums don’t, too.

I hate to sound defeatist because I’m one of the biggest proponents of DDA being a more “believable-sci-fi/horror/Roadwarrior/realistic zombie-movie-experience roguelike” but … “dude, your changes would probably be best made into a mod!” I get the vibe the “main game” isn’t supposed to be … well … a traditional game of sorts. Maybe that’ll change as the big additions on the horizon get added (hoards, NPCs, etc), but right now I think DDA is basically a Katamari that hoovers up people’s item ideas and fanservice and absorbs them as cannon right now. The trouble is, as things get hoovered they become “normal” and set the tone of the game and then blah-blah slippery-slope argument no one likes hearing plus [size=7pt]“NO I MADE THAT YOU CAN’T TAKE IT OUT ME AND MY FRIENDS LOVE IT FUCK YOU”[/size] happens with a big helping of [size=7pt]“IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT JUST DON’T USE IT YOU **** OR JUST GO MAKE YOUR OWN MOD/GAME”[/size].

I’m with Bonevomit (well, with the fundamental tone and message of his words, maybe not exactly the fashion he spoke them :stuck_out_tongue: ). DDA does in fact feel more and more “goofy” and less traditional-realism & roguelike as of late. (See thread currently in motion discussing Moose-Hammers [its basically rebar stuck in a dead moose?], Engine-Block Flails, etc.) That isn’t a bad thing, if that is what it is supposed to be. Romero movie, or Evil Dead? I can like both but one thing can’t BE both. Having fans of each genre try and contribute to a project to make it one or the other is going to be a mess, though.

So, I guess I’ll throw what is my take on the questions sometimes asked. I’ll answer using what I’ve gleaned from testing the game all this time, observing game additions, and reading the forums (Apologies if anyone gets bent out of shape about any of this, it isn’t an attack or negative judgement or admonishment of anything, and jump in and shout me down if needed):

Traditional “Roguelike” Game or Sandbox? Sandbox.

Purpose of the game? Minecraft-like Sandboxing; Storytelling/roleplaying of a character; very short beginning-game playthroughs until you hit the “I am a god” situation described earlier in this thread and many others.

“Romero or Evil Dead?” Evil Dead.

Limits on what to add? Nothing that can be perceived as “magic”, though CMBs and mutations that do magic-like-things that are in game already are staying; anything obviously badly offensive can’t be added usually (though this is the internet so people get offended and bent out of shape at all kinds of things, some totally irrational, & meanwhile other people can totally discount other’s 100% rationally-offended-states and jam in things they want anyway just because).

Otherwise I’m not sure on the limits for additions … it feels like “it is sci-fi” is a valid argument to add nearly anything that isn’t magic … “well it exists in real life” is a valid argument as to why anything should exist in game … “because it’d be awesome”/“well I think it is cool” has been used to add things that realism-purists would probably not like to see … etc. Sometimes it just feels like: Add things? YES MOAR all teh things!

86

You know, im starting to feel this is pointless, there seems to be much of a strong taboo in removing items from game, even when they are nothing but re-skins with negligible damage differences.

87

As far as I can tell, there seems to be a few people debating what items are considered tonally inappropriate, but nobody has made a significant outcry about the stuff tweaked for balance reasons. Maybe you should focus out the latter if you want to get something accomplished? To give up after a few pages seems rather defeatist.

Besides, the existing crazy stuff could be made less obtrusive if not outright removed. The gun discussion thread eventually managed to adjust the spawn rates of the guns to a level fairly acceptable to all, after all.

88

My 2 cents:
First, why the assumption that Cata DDA is set

10 years in the future
? My reading of the lore threads sets my mark closer to 2050 or 2080.
Second, I already said that outright removal of content belongs in a mod and Kevin said the same thing independently on Git last night.

As for content removal, this would be a PERFECT use for mod manager, shift the item definitions, recipes, etc over to a superweapons.json file in the data/mods directory, then players can decide for themselves whether they want high-powered weapons in the game or not.
  1. survivor gear - book-locking the recipe and/or increasing the skill required and/or slightly nerfing the volume would probably solve the problems. I saw BimKirstie’s PR on git (increasing the skill required) and expressed my support, too. The PR just needs to be cleaned up to be pulled in.
  2. Japanese stuff - there’s a PR by John Candlebury which drastically limits its spawning
  3. buffing zombie HP - no objection, I expressed my support on git too, the PR just needs to be cleaned up.
89

CDDA to me:

[size=18pt]Core = Crazy[/size]

I’ve been an advocate in the past for ‘realism’ in games, or ‘Hardcore mode’ if you will.

I roleplay these when I feel like it. Eat a variety of food, find recipes to differentiate my diet. I don’t craft the high end junk, keep it to basic clothes and maybe some fur crafts in winter. Minimalist.

As for Zombies, well…I see them as stupid, relentless juggernauts. Headshots only to drop them. But that’s not how it works in cata, so I deal.

I understand your desire to ‘balance’ this game, and I enjoy the thought of it, really, but unfortunately as what happens to these kinds of requests this has been fairly derailed by zealots who want to strip the game of its core.

To make this work more efficiently, first come up with a plan. Yelling ‘Balance this crap!’ doesn’t work often. Instead create a list of items that NEED to be balanced versus what you would LIKE to have balanced.

Overpowered nature of Sci-fi elements? NEED
Removal or reduction in period pieces? LIKE

I suggest a new topic called “Cataclysm Rebalanced”, which could also be the title of the mod. Start at the basics like suggested settings for the game to make it more balanced from the get go THEN get into rebalancing the world around those settings and your overall ideas of what it means to be a survivor in the Cataclysm

90

I was so happy when the item spawn scale was added to the options list. Taking it down to 0.25 gives a reasonable amount of items for a looted world (if the game starts 3 days after day 0, then most guns have been taken and most bullets have been fired, at least in my opinion).
I just don’t find it realistic when I walk into a basement, and find three sniper rifles, two shotguns, six assault rifles and two thousand bullets. The basements should be reworked, I mean, I know the gun laws are much lighter, but still, finding more weapons in a random citizens basement than in a military outpost just doesn’t add up to me.
Could a zombie item spawn scale be added to? Killing zombie soldiers is like destroying a pinata; bullets, explosives, rifles, armors just pop out of them.

Some of my opinions, I really like the zombie HP buff idea, and op weapons’ spawn scale.

91

If I recall correctly soldiers spawning tons of stuff is a known erroneous behaviour and on the fix-list.

92

Oh. Did not know that.

93

Actually it’s apparently not on the fix list, I think.

I found the thread I remembered, here it is: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=4837.0

94

More of a balance thing.

Perhaps ranged weapons should have a max damage rating. Even with high skills you only can do a base of X damage (with a potential modifier for headshots/criticals afterwards).

That should fix a few of the more OP late game ranged weapons. (And the nailgun burst firing killing Z’s, slingshot doing 30 damage etc).

95

Ok I’m going to try to pull this back in a little bit.

There are two main problems with the game:
-Literal balance (numerical and stats).
-clutter/bloat.

I defy anyone to say that the game doesn’t have massive problems with both. It does, it is fact and it is true. However, it is NOT a lost cause, as long as the devs accept that balance needs to be done soon, and let the community help.

How I propose to tackle these issues:
-Cut out anything which isn’t a core item for later. This includes anything which isn’t buildable now or in the near future, anything foreign to New England or overpowered. Balance the rest.

-Balance monsters, this is pretty easy to do - fungaloids/ant nets/things that you’re able to avoid need to be much stronger. Zombies need a health buff and to become the juggernauts of fiction.

-Make most high end craftables require more rare components. I’m not talking about the whole going back to impossible-to-find-wood-axes era, I’m just saying anything high end needs to be either found or not be able to be made from hundreds of different components.

These three things will get the balance back to the point where the game is playable as a game. I’m willing to work on all of those, and it’d be good if a dev (Kevin?) would put their foot down and agree that balance needs to happen, and soon, before the community gets any nastier. Just let us fix stuff. Anything can be rebalanced in the future, but lets at least make a start.

Yes, some of these things won’t please everyone, but they will make the game an actual game. NOTHING can please everyone, but we need to take a stand.

96

My little suggestion that, if implemented, would please everyone.

There might be some kind of “sliders” in pre-gen options with the ability to change:
Zombie HP (or stats) modifier (from 0.5 to over 9000) (same for wildlife mod, monsters hp mod, etc. )
Weapons/corpses/books/etc spawn rate (maybe split into subcategories such as melee/firearms/futuristic weapons and so on);
Horde strenght (when Z-hordes will be implemented of course);
Any_other_feature;

So “more challenge” players would get what they want, beginners could start wit a little help, and so on.

97

You can already regulate monster and item spawn rate, you know?

Binky - I agree with giving zombies a health buff. I agree with making high-end craftables really high-end craftables (more components, book-locking recipes, 8-9-10 requirements).

I don’t agree with straight out cutting out items. They can be made exceedingly rare (that’s why EkarusRynden’s insight on spawn lists in another thread is so valuable) or craftable only, but they should not be cut out altogether.

98

[quote=“Sanarr, post:96, topic:4901”]My little suggestion that, if implemented, would please everyone.

There might be some kind of “sliders” in pre-gen options with the ability to change:
Zombie HP (or stats) modifier (from 0.5 to over 9000) (same for wildlife mod, monsters hp mod, etc. )
Weapons/corpses/books/etc spawn rate (maybe split into subcategories such as melee/firearms/futuristic weapons and so on);
Horde strenght (when Z-hordes will be implemented of course);
Any_other_feature;

So “more challenge” players would get what they want, beginners could start wit a little help, and so on.[/quote]

The problem with that sort of thing is that the ‘core’ game never gets balanced. This is the point of mods, and I do really understand that for some bits (like splitting off the super/sci-fi weapons into mods), however I feel there needs to be some core balance to work off first.

99

another way to do this re-balance would be to only slightly buff normal zeds and strongly buff special zeds. Like in old time RPGs. They’re there, you know they are, but you also know you’ll get your ass handed to you if you try something in early stages. You see a brute? Well, that area need to be revisited at a later time. You see a hulk? Down on you knees and pray. Unless you are god-like.
Spitters should disintegrate your armor, at least the top layers, electric zeds will stun you for some time if caught in the blast (i think this is already in, but it happens so rare), and so on. Make special zeds more of a middle-to-late game challenge.

100

I don’t mind clutter/bloat. I mind broken recipes that do not work and depend on stuff that isn’t in the game anymore. (Electronic scrap for example).