Balance: pneumatic weapons

[Tamior]

By pneumatic weapons I mean both pneumatic assault rifle (PAR) and pneumatic bolt driver (PBD).

I know this topic has been discussed a few times here and there already, but there is still the proverbial elephant in the room, namely that pneumatic weapons are:

• effectively just as powerful as firearms
  AND
• silent
  AND
• use practically free/infinite ammo
  AND
• are auto-learn recipes

This is a problem because:

• this makes archery (both bows and crossbow) almost moot (niche of low-tech low-sound homemade-ammo ranged weapons should be logically taken by archery-type weapons, but these contraption on steroids (PAR and PBD) just make archery obsolete because they do the same thing, only better).
• this makes actual firearms ridiculously noncompetitive for everyday use (because they use limited ammo AND create excessive noise, and 99%+ of enemies can be killed with PAR/PBD just as easily)
• PAR/PBD make little sense thematically, because they are presumably not “futuristic” weapons, and yet somehow outperform firearms at what firearms are presumably designed to do

Current PAR and PBD are (kind-of sort-of) balanced by the fact you need high(-ish) skill to craft them and by having long reload times, but I think we all know that in practice it’s quite very easy to train crafting skills and reload times are seldom an issue since you mostly engage dangerous enemies one-by-one anyway.

So, if everyone agrees we need to balance PAR and PBD down, I’ll proceed to list some suggestions.

[kevin.granade]

I agree 100%. While these kinds of weapons can deal significant damage, significant doesn’t mean “as much as a modern firearm”. The firing rate cnd capacity are also problematic.

[psyxypher]

I disagree here. The Pneumatic Bolt Driver is a fine weapon, sure, but those eight shots will only get you so far. And it’s rare I’ll find a “Dangerous Enemy” by itself, unless I’m encountering a Chicken Walker, Tank Drone or Jabberwock; everything else tends to have other enemies around. Also remember that you can only reload the Bolt Driver one bolt at a time, so that reload time adds up.

The Pneumatic Assault Rifle…I haven’t had much experience with this one, but it seemed like an all around terrible weapon to me. Sure, ammo was everywhere, but what’s the point of all that ammo if you need to drain a whole magazine to kill a small handful of enemies? It’s like the Nail Rifle or Coilgun, you have Burst Fire/High Armor Piercing, seems great. But the damage is so pathetic that you empty a good fifth of the magazine trying to kill one enemy, and its hard to kill something before it closes in on you.

As for the advantages of said weapons, they are meant to be this way. They’re based off weapons from Metro 2033 made from scrap, and specifically are meant to work with low resources. In Cataclysm terms, they’re weapons made from scrap that perfectly fit your situation: They’re silent, so they don’t attract zombies. Ammo can be found everywhere because its more efficient than looking for finite stocks of ammo that might not even be compatible with your gun. Also remember that being silent isn’t something most (if any) pre-Cataclysm weapons ever tried to be.

Finally, I’m against nerfing these weapons because they’re the only weapons you can make yourself that aren’t complete garbage. I’ve looked through all the “Survivor” weapons (not just the ones with that prefix, but all the homemade stuff from Nail Rifles to Survivor Carbines) and I couldn’t find a single one worth using. The closest was the Triple Barrel Launcher, which is an improvement over the other grenade launchers…until you find the Rivtech one, that is.

IMO, this game needs better Survivor Weapons, not worse ones.

[Tamior]

I disagree here. The Pneumatic Bolt Driver is a fine weapon, sure, but those eight shots will only get you so far.

As compared to what? Normal crossbow? That one is ONE shot weapon. So PBD is 8 times(!) better.

And it’s rare I’ll find a “Dangerous Enemy” by itself, unless I’m encountering a Chicken Walker, Tank Drone or Jabberwock; everything else tends to have other enemies around.

You know as well as I do that Z’s are VERY easy to pull one-by-one even if they are within a group, because they aggro one-by-one. And the “Dangerous Enemy” types usually have different speed from the rest of the chaff, making it even easier to separate them.

The Pneumatic Assault Rifle…I haven’t had much experience with this one, but it seemed like an all around terrible weapon to me. Sure, ammo was everywhere, but what’s the point of all that ammo if you need to drain a whole magazine to kill a small handful of enemies? It’s like the Nail Rifle or Coilgun, you have Burst Fire/High Armor Piercing, seems great. But the damage is so pathetic that you empty a good fifth of the magazine trying to kill one enemy, and its hard to kill something before it closes in on you.

Can you be more specific what are you comparing the damage TO? Because makeshift ranged weapons having damage on par with actual firearms (even handguns) is just ridiculously unrealistic.

As for the advantages of said weapons, they are meant to be this way. They’re based off weapons from Metro 2033 made from scrap, and specifically are meant to work with low resources.

It was just as ridiculously unrealistic in metro that a pneumatic contraption can compete with VSV damage-wise.

In Cataclysm terms, they’re weapons made from scrap that perfectly fit your situation: They’re silent, so they don’t attract zombies. Ammo can be found everywhere because its more efficient than looking for finite stocks of ammo that might not even be compatible with your gun. Also remember that being silent isn’t something most (if any) pre-Cataclysm weapons ever tried to be.

Yea, and all of these features should logically be on archery-type weapons (bows and crossbows), not pneumatic contraptions. There is a REASON pneumatic weapons aren’t really competitive in practice (IRL) compared to BOTH firearms and bows/crossbows.

Finally, I’m against nerfing these weapons because they’re the only weapons you can make yourself that aren’t complete garbage.

Um, no? Both bows and crossbows (that you can make yourself) are fine. Pneumatic contraptions are not just “not complete garbage”, they literally OUTPERFORM firearms!

[kevin.granade]

As for the advantages of said weapons, they are meant to be this way.

That doesn’t mean anything, just because someone thought it was a good idea at some point doesn’t mean we can’t revisit it.

They’re based off weapons from Metro 2033 made from scrap, and specifically are meant to work with low resources.

This is even less meaningful, unless they’re evicted from the main game into a metro 2033 mod.

Finally, I’m against nerfing these weapons because they’re the only weapons you can make yourself that aren’t complete garbage.

IMO, this game needs better Survivor Weapons, not worse ones.

This is intentional, you can’t make guns because it’s not something a sole survivor can reasonably do, and the pneumatic weapons are right on the edge. If they’re somehow on par with pre-cataclysm firearms, that pushes them over the edge into “too far” territory.

[Tamior]

I would also like to mention that DDA is a game, and it’s VERY bad design to have items in-game that render entire skills (archery in this case) and huge segments of weapons (low caliber firearms) completely moot by comparison.

Twice so if those items are available by default.

[psyxypher]

As compared to what? Normal crossbow? That one is ONE shot weapon. So PBD is 8 times(!) better.

And this is bad, why? I almost never use a crossbow for that very reason; its a one shot weapon. Ammo is a VERY important factor for me when choosing a gun; probably the most important, actually. The Pneumatic Bolt Driver is something I’d actually consider using because of its capacity; why use a Crossbow if I have to spend so much time reloading it? That could seriously screw me over.

You know as well as I do that Z’s are VERY easy to pull one-by-one even if they are within a group, because they aggro one-by-one. And the “Dangerous Enemy” types usually have different speed from the rest of the chaff, making it even easier to separate them.

That’s strange, usually this only works when I’m night raiding. Usually if one Zombie has seen me, the entire block has spotted me. And the only enemy that’s usually faster than the others is the “Feral Zombie” chain, at least as far as I’ve noticed.

Yea, and all of these features should logically be on archery-type weapons (bows and crossbows), not pneumatic contraptions.

Why not? I don’t see a reason not to.

Um, no? Both bows and crossbows (that you can make yourself) are fine. Pneumatic contraptions are not just “not complete garbage”, they literally OUTPERFORM firearms!

That is a matter of opinion. I stopped using the Bolt Driver the moment I found an AR-15, for the reason that it could hold thirty rounds and reloading it didn’t take nearly 5 rounds/turns (I don’t know what a unit of time is called in this game, or if it even has one).

Bows have their own flaws, like having to rely on someone’s arm strength. Both bows and crossbows can only hold a single bolt at once. The Pneumatic Bolt Driver can hold eight bolts and doesn’t require you to have a high strength score to use, along with sharing a skill with the useful Rifles skill and can accept mods.

I still don’t see how they Out-perform firearms. Its not like they have the highest damage, or the highest ammo count. They outperform some, sure, but so do some of the fabricated weapons. Also, I have to reiterate my statement; the pneumatic weapons are the only good firearms you can craft by yourself.

Now a question for you: Why do you seem so opposed to players being able to craft their own firearms that’d actually be useful? No one will use a weapon if the opportunity cost of it means forgoing an all around better weapon. Why be able to craft homemade firearms if they are completely, totally and utterly inferior to other, easy to get weapons?

EDIT: Saw Kevin’s post on the matter. I wholly disagree with it, because then it means there’s no good reason to actually use survivor weapons at all. Unless I’m missing something.

[Mantar]

Both bows and crossbows can only hold a single bolt at once.

Bows don’t actually hold an arrow, they just fire directly from your quiver. I don’t much use the pneumatic weapons myself – the extra damage is neat, but a bow+quiver allows far more rapid fire and does does decent enough damage that I can drop small groups of enemies with something approaching ease. Nocking an arrow takes only 78 moves for my main character. Reloading the pneumatic bolt driver takes 126 per bolt, almost halving my rate of fire after my initial load of 8 is gone, and in practice I seem to get nearly as much damage out of metal arrows as the steel bolts. Like 80%-90%, thanks to the greater accuracy of my bow. The arrows have less dispersion (and more range) so I get a greater percentage of solid hits and crits, which makes up for the lower base damage rate.
If you’re only going to be killing a couple of zeds, the PBD wins by virtue of preloading those first 8 shots. But when I find myself wading into a vault or school or something, the arrows are hard to beat.

[psyxypher]

Well color me surprised. Thank you, I was hoping someone else would provide a good reason not to nerf the Bolt Driver. I can imagine that’d accuracy at range would be a problem for the bolt driver but not so much for arrows.

[Solusphere]

While pneumatic weapons are up in the air, I’d ask that the somewhat similar electromagnetic rail weapons not be nerfed. They already have enough disadvantages to make up for their powerful damage and easily-crafted ammo.

[tarburst98]

what about a “compressed air tank” item? works like a UPS but for pneumatic gear. you can recharge/refill it via “air compressor” , aka it transforms batterys/electricty into pneumatic power.

[druidniam]

Having built a pneumatic replica of the Tihar, you don’t need a specialized tank since the tank is integral to the design of the weapon. Part of the reloading of the bolt driver I feel is not just shoving a bolt into a tube, but also cranking the hand pump to charge the cylinder. I’d have to take a look at the PAR better since I’ve never played with one in game, but I image the same to be true. The weapons are ludicrously simple to make with off the shelf plumbing and compressed air supplies and a bicycle pump. The bolt driver would be a little more complex to make in that you’re triggering the air compression for a single shot. If each cylinder holding a bolt also had it’s own air tank that would make a little more sense, and based on the weapon description I think that’s the case. You can search youtube and fine thousands of videos of people who’ve build pneumatic weapons ranging from low powered bb guns to compact fully automatic crossbows that can punch a hole through steel at 100 yards.

The PBD is great for a handful of zeds depending on your rifle and marksmanship abilities, but I keep a dedicated rifle that can hit turrets with-out having to close the distance into armor shredding distance. Preferably one that can fit a suppressor.

Edit: Search for JoergSprave if you want to see a shitload of home made archery weapons.
Edit2: Pneumatic Speargun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbjljsqlOkg

[Tamior]

And this is bad, why? I almost never use a crossbow for that very reason; its a one shot weapon.

Because PBD is is flat out better than a crossbow in every single way and is an auto-learn recipe anyway. This makes crossbows completely obsolete. Compare this to a repeating crossbow — similar to PDB in mag size, but actually BALANCED to NOT make normal crossbow obsolete.

That could seriously screw me over.

Not an argument. If you personally what an OP weapon, mod it locally.

That’s strange, usually this only works when I’m night raiding. Usually if one Zombie has seen me, the entire block has spotted me.

That’s not how it works in an open field in broad daylight.
You can approach a group from afar and Z’s will trigger one-by-one.

And the only enemy that’s usually faster than the others is the “Feral Zombie” chain, at least as far as I’ve noticed.

Um, no?
Hulk are faster than most other Z’s.
Brutes are faster.
Shockers are faster.
Etc.

Why not? I don’t see a reason not to.

Because it makes archery-type weapons and low caliber firearms practically obsolete and is completely unrealistic for a weapon that is presumably NOT futuristic.

They outperform some, sure, but so do some of the fabricated weapons.

Yea, that’s it. Home-made hand-held pneumatic non-rifled weapons should NOT out-perform damage-wise even .22 firearms. Ever. Unless it’s a “futuristic” pneumatic weapon.

Why do you seem so opposed to players being able to craft their own firearms that’d actually be useful?

I’m not. What I AM opposed to is players being able to craft at home pneumatic weapons that perform as well or even better than low-caliber firearms. Because balance. And if that was anywhere near realistic, low-caliber firearms would not exist IRL, everything would have been pneumatic.

No one will use a weapon if the opportunity cost of it means forgoing an all around better weapon. Why be able to craft homemade firearms if they are completely, totally and utterly inferior to other, easy to get weapons?

Firearms are only “easy to get” if you play with high item spawn value. Try playing in 0.01 item spawn world.

[Tamior]

Bows don’t actually hold an arrow, they just fire directly from your quiver. I don’t much use the pneumatic weapons myself – the extra damage is neat, but a bow+quiver allows far more rapid fire and does does decent enough damage that I can drop small groups of enemies with something approaching ease. Nocking an arrow takes only 78 moves for my main character. Reloading the pneumatic bolt driver takes 126 per bolt, almost halving my rate of fire after my initial load of 8 is gone, and in practice I seem to get nearly as much damage out of metal arrows as the steel bolts. Like 80%-90%, thanks to the greater accuracy of my bow. The arrows have less dispersion (and more range) so I get a greater percentage of solid hits and crits, which makes up for the lower base damage rate.
If you’re only going to be killing a couple of zeds, the PBD wins by virtue of preloading those first 8 shots. But when I find myself wading into a vault or school or something, the arrows are hard to beat.

Long story short: bows are fine, pneumatic’s are OP.
Long story long: what you should really think about here is that bows and crossbow should be balanced between the two — similar in ammo availability, sound and range, bows should have higher rate of fire, crossbows higher damage and higher armor penetration. Right now this is more-or-less the case for actual bows and crossbows, but PDB is a crossbow on steroids. PBD is actually substantially more powerful than a bow (at the same skill) and has MUCH higher armor penetration, but has a rate of fire HIGHER than a bow for the first 8 shots and only somewhat slower thereafter. (And that’s when comparing PDB to a bow that’s actually NOT an auto-learn recipe, it’s even more noticeable if you compare to just the longbow.)

[Tamior]

While pneumatic weapons are up in the air, I’d ask that the somewhat similar electromagnetic rail weapons not be nerfed. They already have enough disadvantages to make up for their powerful damage and easily-crafted ammo.

Rail weapons take hours to craft even 10 shots that can NOT be re-used. Plus they are, to be honest, clearly “futuristic”.

[Tamior]

what about a “compressed air tank” item? works like a UPS but for pneumatic gear. you can recharge/refill it via “air compressor” , aka it transforms batterys/electricty into pneumatic power.

As far as I know it’s hard to code a weapon that uses TWO ammo types at once. (“Hard” as in “not a thing in a code as-is, needs to be designed from scratch”.) So if you are willing to implement that — sure. Otherwise…

[Tamior]

Having built a pneumatic replica of the Tihar, you don’t need a specialized tank since the tank is integral to the design of the weapon. Part of the reloading of the bolt driver I feel is not just shoving a bolt into a tube, but also cranking the hand pump to charge the cylinder. I’d have to take a look at the PAR better since I’ve never played with one in game, but I image the same to be true. The weapons are ludicrously simple to make with off the shelf plumbing and compressed air supplies and a bicycle pump. The bolt driver would be a little more complex to make in that you’re triggering the air compression for a single shot. If each cylinder holding a bolt also had it’s own air tank that would make a little more sense, and based on the weapon description I think that’s the case. You can search youtube and fine thousands of videos of people who’ve build pneumatic weapons ranging from low powered bb guns to compact fully automatic crossbows that can punch a hole through steel at 100 yards.

Simple question: if this is the case and those pneumatics not only “technically work” but actually have enough energy to deliver a substantial punch, why bows, crossbows and low-caliber stuff like .22 still have not been replaced with pneumatic’s IRL?

[Tamior]

I’d also like to remind that while realism may be a good guideline in general, in a game you balance items around the idea that item A should not be strictly better than item B if both have similar availability.

If we remove pneumatic’s from the scene, it’s kind of the case: archery-type weapons are MUCH easier to get reliably, are silent and have effectively infinite ammo, but they don’t have burst fire, have lower DPS than firearms and much lower armor pen with bows or much slower reload with crossbows. Kind-of-balanced.

Pneumatic contraptions upset this balance: they retain availability by default, remain silent and have effectively infinite ammo, but now they get DPS on par with low-mid caliber firearms, get burst fire with PAR, high damage/armor pen with PBD, and a sizeable mag size (PBD can kill a hulk with one mag even with average skill, don’t tell me that’s a “small mag” somehow).

[TheWumpus]

Having built a pneumatic replica of the Tihar, you don’t need a specialized tank since the tank is integral to the design of the weapon. Part of the reloading of the bolt driver I feel is not just shoving a bolt into a tube, but also cranking the hand pump to charge the cylinder. I’d have to take a look at the PAR better since I’ve never played with one in game, but I image the same to be true. The weapons are ludicrously simple to make with off the shelf plumbing and compressed air supplies and a bicycle pump. The bolt driver would be a little more complex to make in that you’re triggering the air compression for a single shot. If each cylinder holding a bolt also had it’s own air tank that would make a little more sense, and based on the weapon description I think that’s the case. You can search youtube and fine thousands of videos of people who’ve build pneumatic weapons ranging from low powered bb guns to compact fully automatic crossbows that can punch a hole through steel at 100 yards.

Simple question: if this is the case and those pneumatics not only “technically work” but actually have enough energy to deliver a substantial punch, why bows, crossbows and low-caliber stuff like .22 still have not been replaced with pneumatic’s IRL?

1. It takes a long damned time to build a hundred psi with a bicycle pump.
2. Most people lack the knowledge to actually make those things.
3. We do not live in a situation where factory manufactured goods like ammo, carbon fiber arrows, and premade bows and crossbows of excellent quality are scarce

Maybe pneumatic weapons are OP. Y’know what? It’s a single player game. Don’t use them if they bother you. If you have to min-max no matter what and it upsets you, mod them out or blacklist them. I’ve never bothered to make the damned things because melee has always been king in this game, especially in the last few months because the aim system is currently undergoing a massive overhaul.

[psyxypher]

Not an argument. If you personally what an OP weapon, mod it locally.

How is this not an argument? The fact that I could spend just as much time reloading a crossbow as I do firing it seems like a pretty good argument. Efficiency is a damn good argument in a survival situation. I also ask you don’t mine my quotes, please, because the way you quoted me makes me seem like I’m concerned about being overpowered, not about ammo and reloading times like I actually am.

I don’t consider the Pneumatic Bolt Driver an “Overpowered” weapon. I consider it a serviceable one, or just above average. I consider the Crossbow an underpowered weapon.

Firearms are only “easy to get” if you play with high item spawn value. Try playing in 0.01 item spawn world.

I could easily shoot back at you and say “This is not an argument” because then you are intentionally handicapping yourself and making things harder. But I won’t.

Maybe pneumatic weapons are OP. Y’know what? It’s a single player game. Don’t use them if they bother you. If you have to min-max no matter what and it upsets you, mod them out or blacklist them. I’ve never bothered to make the damned things because melee has always been king in this game, especially in the last few months because the aim system is currently undergoing a massive overhaul.

Best argument on the thread, IMO. Thank you.