Balance: machete vs tanto

[TacticalPteridactyl]

probably a mod conflict or something but

the machete has much better stats than the tanto, despite being much simpler to fabricate.

not directly comparable is the machete’s block vs the tanto’s rapid strike. maybe a consideration.

[harison86]

The tanto, as a knife, is a tool-weapon hybrid that is used both for butchering and as a secondary weapon, and is small enough to fit in a sheath or ankle sheath. This puts it in a different class from the machete, which is closer to a sword and better as a primary weapon. It would be more fair to compare it to other knives, which are used as butchering tools and secondary weapons that don’t take up inventory space. Compared to other knives, the tanto appears to be decent but still not as good as other knives that don’t require a rare recipe book.

Looking at it now, I feel that a bigger balance problem is that knives in general don’t appear to be particularly useful. The only scenario I can think of currently where I would need a knife is when my weapon gets pulled from me by that-one-zed-I-can’t-remember, but they’re so rare it’s hardly an issue. Knives have high butchering quality, but the katana, broadsword, and machete are all incredibly prevalent as primary weapons in the end-game, and they already have decent butchering quality; it’s just not worth the several hours of time to make a knife for marginal (if any) butchering improvements (I don’t do a lot of butchering outside of CBM and acid zeds, so a second opinion from an in-game hunter would be appreciated).

[kevin.granade]

How does the wakazashi compare to the machete? They’re a lot more comparable. A tanto is pretty much uselessly short for combat, that’s expected, and difficulty to craft doesn’t necessarily reflect how useful it is.

In general I agree with Harrison’s point, knives are, and should be relatively useless in combat, they just aren’t good at it.

[TacticalPteridactyl]

Ah. That’s what I missed. Volume comparisons. I had pictured it differently in my head.

  Name 	    Material   V 	W 	        M/A 	Dmg   dps 	 H

/ wakizashi Steel 6 1.84 lbs 102 31 0.30 +1
/ machete Steel 4 1.19 lbs 89 26 0.29 +2
/ tanto Steel 3 1.23 lbs 86 17 0.20 +2

[Coolthulhu]

knives are, and should be relatively useless in combat, they just aren’t good at it.

They should be good at picking weak spots in armor ie. crits.
But there is currently no way to boost crit rate. Except buffing accuracy.

Also could be good in a grapple, but currently grapples penalize everyone equally.

[_k1]

“Tanto” is literally short-blade.

[Alec_White]

“Tanto” is literally short-blade.

This.

A tanto is a short sword, not a knife.

[harison86]

[quote="§k, post:6, topic:14362"]“Tanto” is literally short-blade.

This.

A tanto is a short sword, not a knife.[/quote]
*Dagger. Every source I look at refers to it as either a knife or dagger, or as equivalent to a dagger. The wakizashi is the Japanese analogue to a short sword.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tant%C5%8D
"The tantō is a dagger."
http://web.archive.org/web/20091023234204/http://geocities.com/alchemyst/tanto.htm
"The tanto or dagger…"
https://www.aoijapan.com/japaneseswords/tanto
"Tanto (15~30cm or 5.9~11.8 inches) ; Short blade, used as a knife or dagger…“
https://books.google.com/books?id=i0ni1NmbYe0C&pg=PA161#v=onepage&q&f=false
"Tanto is a term used for blades less than 30 centimeters (about one foot) in length, and thus this type of sword is often translated as a dagger.”

With a blade length of 5.9-11.8 in, compared to 12.8 to 17.7 in for a machete, it’s either a really short sword or a pretty big knife.

Giving the tanto stats closer to a short sword would create more balancing problems for it as well: if it then fits in a scabbard instead of a sheathe, it would just be a crappier version of other swords due to its relative size. If it has the stats of a sword but still goes in a sheathe, it would outclass every other item that fits in a sheathe.

[DemAvalon]

[quote="§k, post:6, topic:14362"]“Tanto” is literally short-blade.

This.

A tanto is a short sword, not a knife.[/quote]

Looks like a knife to me:

wish I could resize this…

on the images the tanto has 22 cm (8,5 inches) of blade, the machete has 37 cm (14,5 inches) of blade, the butcher knife has 28 cm (11 inches) of blade.

there was another type of tanto that had 10 inches of blade but they don’t seem to get bigger than this.

[Coolthulhu]

The in-game butcher knife has considerably lower stats than this photo suggests, barely over a screwdriver.

[TacticalPteridactyl]

I thought a “butcher’s knife” was synonymous with “cleaver”

Not a stabby-thing at all.

[DemAvalon]

[quote=“TacticalPteridactyl, post:11, topic:14362”]I thought a “butcher’s knife” was synonymous with “cleaver”

Not a stabby-thing at all.[/quote]

looking for the butcher knife on google gave me pictures of cleavers, carving knives and knives like the one I showed, I thought that it was that one because if there were cleavers in the game it would just say cleaver, whoever the butcher knife in the game does not deal piercing damage so you are probably right.

The in-game butcher knife has considerably lower stats than this photo suggests, barely over a screwdriver.

That seems kinda ridiculous that a tool designed to go through flesh and bone would only be a little better than a screwdriver… but then again I never tried to stab someone with a screwdriver or chop someone with a cleaver.

[TacticalPteridactyl]

If anything, the cleaver could handle a bit more bashing damage, and a bit less cutting. They don’t really cut through bone. They smash the heck out of the joints between bones, and even then, it really only works against a hard surface. If you want to cut bone, you’re better off using a bandsaw.

[TooDAMNMuch]

knives should be relatively useless in combat? OH HELL NO!

there’s a reason any self defense class will warn you about attackers with a knife, you either keep your distance or reconsider whether you wanna get shanked, knives are very useful in melee combat (especially daggers which are generally long enough to pierce through to vital organs) but the downside is you don’t want to be in melee range of someone with a knife.

it’s suicidal and mutually assured destruction, but it’s anything but relatively useless in combat, that’s for sure.

[DemAvalon]

[quote=“TooDAMNMuch, post:14, topic:14362”]knives should be relatively useless in combat? OH HELL NO!

there’s a reason any self defense class will warn you about attackers with a knife, you either keep your distance or reconsider whether you wanna get shanked, knives are very useful in melee combat (especially daggers which are generally long enough to pierce through to vital organs) but the downside is you don’t want to be in melee range of someone with a knife.

it’s suicidal and mutually assured destruction, but it’s anything but relatively useless in combat, that’s for sure.[/quote]

While that is true, I think the simplistic combat mechanics of Cataclysm: DDA are not good enough to show the true shine of the variety of weapons and their uses (hammers crushing bones, spears and dagger piercing organs, limb disabling etc…)

[harison86]

[quote=“TooDAMNMuch, post:14, topic:14362”]knives should be relatively useless in combat? OH HELL NO!

there’s a reason any self defense class will warn you about attackers with a knife, you either keep your distance or reconsider whether you wanna get shanked, knives are very useful in melee combat (especially daggers which are generally long enough to pierce through to vital organs) but the downside is you don’t want to be in melee range of someone with a knife.

it’s suicidal and mutually assured destruction, but it’s anything but relatively useless in combat, that’s for sure.[/quote]
Relatively useless, as in relative to other weapons, yeah. Daggers are small and lack velocity, range, stopping power, and intimidation in comparison to a sword or axe. They’re lighter at the expense of all that other stuff and if you can put enough force behind it maybe it pierces armor better than other weapons but that’s it. They’re better than nothing and useless might be a strong word, but they’re still subpar compared to a proper primary weapon of war (which is something the player can obtain and has to be accounted for when balancing).

[kevin.granade]

knives should be relatively useless in combat? OH HELL NO!

Read the context please. Relatively useless compared to swords and machetes not compared to bare handed.

[TooDAMNMuch]

to be fair, we are thinking mainly of versus zombies as well, right? humans are easy to kill, but do zombies even need blood? probably not.

[Coolthulhu]

do zombies even need blood?

The ones in game do suffer from blood loss (it’s just hard to inflict it on them), have blood fresh enough not to congeal which implies it flows, and have vital organs of some sort that can be damaged to deanimate them more efficiently than just by brute force.
They don’t need to breathe, eat, and rest and do have really good ability to regenerate, but other than that they’re mostly similar to regular living beings.

[TooDAMNMuch]

The ones in game do suffer from blood loss (it’s just hard to inflict it on them), have blood fresh enough not to congeal which implies it flows, and have vital organs of some sort that can be damaged to deanimate them more efficiently than just by brute force. They don’t need to breathe, eat, and rest and do have really good ability to regenerate, but other than that they’re mostly similar to regular living beings.

good to know, seems almost everything that can have lore uses it’s own slightly modified variant of original (read: brain is the only important thing) zombies to varying degrees, hell even the movies can’t keep the rules straight.