A few little suggestions to complicate the game

[Savidiy]

1. Reduce the renowned area of the map in the beginning of the game. Before: “Where should I go first? In the gun store or to the sewage treatment?”. After: “Where am I going?”
2. Reduce the cost of moving through the bushes with 400 to 250 and 300 to 200. Before: “I have a pipe and 0 skill in hand-to-hand, but I’ll kill zombies before it could attack me!” After “Throw the stone and run!”
3. Reduce weight, which can be worn without penalties. Before “I can carry 50 kg without shortness of breath” After “I can carry 20 kg without shortness of breath”
4. Add a penalty for a lack of sleep. First, intelligence and perception. Then, strength and agility.

What do you think about this? I tested 1 and 2, I liked it.

[Inadequate]

1 only serves to complicate the early game, which isn’t in need of extra difficulty right now. Same with 2, plus it cripples melee characters even more compared to ranged characters. 3 only serves to increase the tedium of the game, once you get your hands on a shopping cart it’s largely a moot point. 4 seems reasonable.

[KA101]

#4.

[Savidiy]

#4.

Good news!

[Binky]

ahh yet another thread about increasing the difficulty…

Glad to see 4 was implemented. I’m unsure about the other suggestions though, although 1 does sound pretty interesting as a ‘no-map’ option.

[Ferodaktyl]

a small penalty should be added for stuffed/slaked condition. I mean, who feels like doing anything after eating to the point of exploding/vomiting ?

[dwarfkoala]

Nah.

[kevin.granade]

1) Reduce the renowned area of the map in the beginning of the game. Before: “Where should I go first? In the gun store or to the sewage treatment?”. After: “Where am I going?”

Not just simply reducing it, but tying this to character creation might be neat, so if you have the “local” trait you know the layout of the nearby town, “traveller” might have highways in the area marked, “out of towner” might have some other town revealed, and a road to it.

2) Reduce the cost of moving through the bushes with 400 to 250 and 300 to 200. Before: “I have a pipe and 0 skill in hand-to-hand, but I’ll kill zombies before it could attack me!” After “Throw the stone and run!”

This is something we can look at, it’s probably excessive where it is.

3) Reduce weight, which can be worn without penalties. Before “I can carry 50 kg without shortness of breath” After “I can carry 20 kg without shortness of breath”

I think this is where we want it to be, it’s a little generous, but not by that much, the main limiter is storage space.

4) Add a penalty for a lack of sleep. First, intelligence and perception. Then, strength and agility.

Rough draft implementing this in PR, and I don’t see a problem with it, so it’ll probably go in soon.

Little side note on language, you said “complicate the game”, I think you mean “make the game more challenging” or “make the game more interesting”. “complicate” suggests that you’re adding stuff without making it better.

[Binky]

snippy snip snip

I agree heartily with your suggestions - having local/traveller/out of towner traits would be awesome! for #2/#3 an in between amount be good, especially with weight, as I hardly ever seem to run out of weight (unless I’m carrying landmines) but constantly run out of storage.

[Inadequate]

While I’m still not a fan of 1, local/traveller sounds interesting. And maybe it’s different for melee characters, who require the least possible amount of encumbrance, but I tend to walk around with as many pouches as I can fit, so I always run up against the weight limit faster than the volume limit. It really seems like it doesn’t add anything - if you’re on the overworld, once you get a shopping cart it’s a moot point, so this mostly serves to make lab raids far more tedious.

[Brian_Lefler]

What do others feel Savidiy’s suggestion about halving the terrain penalties currently in the game? It does seem like the current penalty is really high (4x to get through a car door) and heavily in the player’s favor since zombies (rightfully) aren’t smart about maneuvering around terrain. Is 2 points still a good cost for Parkour if it provides less of a benefit? Anyone take Parkour now?

I’m mixed about raising difficulty when it affects new players adversely, but I’m pretty sure carefully kiting zombies into flaming bushes is an experienced player’s tactic, so it’s a good candidate for nerfing. If there’s a strong feeling in favor, I can PR the change tomorrow.

[Inadequate]

It seems to hurt melee players more than ranged players, and that’s something that should be avoided, I feel.

[John_Candlebury]

I say no to lowering the move penalty of bushes, as they are the only thing that makes melee usable until you find a sword or otherwise heavy weapon. Also i like that minuscule amount of strategy luring zombies into bushes implies, and without it melee would degrade into: bash zombie with wrench, move backwards two tiles, wait for zombie to move to you, bash, repeat.

[DevilRanger]

Though lowering the move penalty of bushes would decrease the viability of taking care of groups of zombies with no skill, encouraging people be less aggressive and increasing the threat level of standard zs

[Inadequate]

If you want to increase the threat level of regular zombies, there’s already several suggestions in place for evolving them later on in the game. Making bog-standard zombies tougher from the onset hurts the early game, and that’s one thing that isn’t needed.

[Dzlan]

Woah woah woah, haha. I hope weight does not change unless, it’s to hold more, certainly not less, haha.
I have 10 Strength, and I seem to be limited by weight, a lot. No backpacks and rucksacks, just a load of Fitted, Tool Belts, Leather pouches, Fanny Packs, Messenger Bags, Utility Vests, etc. And I carry my tools with me, like all of them. But I always seem to run out of weight.

[John_Candlebury]

Though lowering the move penalty of bushes would decrease the viability of taking care of groups of zombies with no skill, encouraging people be less aggressive and increasing the threat level of standard zs

Sometimes I wonder if people who suggest upping the difficulty of the starting game ever play at all without giving themselves extra starting points or debugging their way out of problems. Starting the game with no melee skills and meeting a group of zombies (or even worse a pack of zombie dogs) in your first venture two towns is already a nope your character is screwed moment. And only using bushes you manage to gain those two necessary melee levels in order not to suck with weapons that don’t use bashing as the main skill.

And if they nerd bushes what are we going to have to do in the first day in order to get the basic supplies?

-You can’t succesfully throw rocks because youll miss alot, lack the volume to carry large numbers and they do almost insignificant damage.
-You cant use a slingshot as the zombies will catch up to and eat you alive as you hit them for 5 or less damage.
-You cant craft a bow with 0 skill and even if you could the selfbow with arrow shafts is absolutely terrible at killing zombies (or anything that is not squirrels actually).
-You cant use a pistol because heh good luck finding one.
-You cant use knifes without bushes because they will get stuck on zombies and you’ll get eaten.
-You CAN use a nailboard succesfully without the use of bushes, but that means everyone will start using and it will invariably get nerfed.

And then what? Is it necessary for the game to force us into pointlessly grind skills while figthing dehidratation by eating berries in the first days ala DF?

[vache]

In that same token, John, why does it have to be necessary that you bush kite?

Starting the game with no melee skills and meeting a group of zombies (or even worse a pack of zombie dogs) in your first venture two towns is already a nope your character is screwed moment.

Why is it a bad thing that the game has “nope, your character is screwed” moments? Those are what make the game interesting, they’re what provide the learning experiences for your next playthrough. That’s what roguelikes are all about. And you shouldn’t be able to handle a group of zombies on your first day.

Besides, a change to move cost 200 for shrubs still provides a tactical advantage, just not as big of one as with 400. I can get up to 5 hits off on a shrubbed zombie before they have a chance to do a single hit.

Throwing rocks actually is a pretty viable strategy to whittling down zombies early on, so that you can finish them off in melee. Changing shrub movement shouldn’t affect that.

Maybe you shouldn’t be expected to fight a horde of zombies your first day? Maybe you should be able to run past and lose most of them in a mad dash to grab the supplies you think are the most useful, if that’s the strategy you choose. And it is possible to find almost all essential supplies for a short while without going into town. Scientist corpses always have water. Military corpses sometimes have MREs. Berries and apples and other wild fruit are readily available. Gas stations spawn abandoned and outside of towns with food and drink, and occasionally other goodies, and even nearby vehicles that are usually in good repair.

Also, I play all the time with only 6 starting points and no debug menu. Though I almost always pick quick, that is an OP trait if ever there was one.

[John_Candlebury]

Why is it a bad thing that the game has “nope, your character is screwed” moments? Those are what make the game interesting, they’re what provide the learning experiences for your next playthrough. That’s what roguelikes are all about. And you shouldn’t be able to handle a group of zombies on your first day.

I apparently was not clear when writing that, I don’t mean that those you are screwed moments are bad, I was just saying that it is already impossible to survive in a good shape an encounter with a group of zombies. Not that they should be removed or anything or that they are frustrating or that I should be able to clear cities on day one, nor anything that follows those lines of thought.

Also, if you checked, you’ll find that for a character without QUICK luring a zombie to a 200 move point obstacle provides no strategical advantage at all, as you’ll only get one “free strike”, after which the zombie will always retaliate, the exactly same results can be achieved with the old move backwards and wait for zombies strategy, rendering any bushing strategy moot.

What I am saying that if we are removing the only strategy melee has, even if it the strategy is “cheap”, we better replace it with a strategy that is more sensible and balanced instead of leaving the hole thing to run backwards and hope for good rolls. Cause I do that in pretty much every other rouge like.

I wont bother with checking how zombie infested houses spawn with the the default spawn modifier, but with 1.4 getting near a house for that indispensable frying pan implies at least killing 6 zombies in close succession (if not more, usually more) and sure you can loot dead zombies if you manage to kill that manhack minions the zombie scientist spawns, but at less than 2 skill good luck with that

[vache]

I just kite them through the woods until I lose them then double back for loot if I’m not powerful enough. Also, I’m not usually afraid to take damage, and I will hide out and sleep in the back of a busted van to heal if I have to. Maybe the strategy shouldn’t be to always go in with weapons blazing. I think windows should keep the movement penalty, which makes them pretty viable for early game melee defending, but there should be some measure like zombies pushing others through to keep you from fighting off an entire town through one. A handful, sure.

There are already a lot of viable strategies. Train on the dozens of rats that infest the world now before venturing to a city, throw rocks at range to weaken them until you can hit up close, pull em through a window, and so on.