6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game

The theoretical role of forum-github liason is actually best filled by as many users as possible. The more people frequent both github and CDDA forums, the less it feels like we’re two islands with one shitty bridge and a lot of yelling.

I agree with Pisskop! I think a good start would be if more non-coders opened up the game files and looked at them. I get it. Code is scary as balls and why read through it if one isn’t going to contribute? The thing is, even knowing the shape of the engine under the hood is a boon when two or more people want to talk about it. I will lie in the bed I have made and go code-diving too, after work today.

As a comment on the very opening topic, I really like a gritty realism survival game, but I also know CDDA was intended to be a weird and wacky zombie/combat/adventure/open world sorta-survival game. The granularity of little details I have to track from the onset means the game starts out ridiculously complex and hard to master as a newbie, but once you get it, the game itself feels almost stagnant. Then if you survive until mid-late game, it is stagnant. I forgive this because the game is incomplete, but it is a problem.

We’re in a period of gaming where the “story” tends to start out simple and ramp up in complexity as you acquire more items, discover more map, learn more abilities, etc. Even portal with literally a two-function gun managed this by adding in the second portal after a couple levels, as well as adding in increasingly more portalling ‘tricks’ or puzzle assets.

We kind of have that going on via the crafting menu and vehicles, but a lot of recent features (apologies, my definition of recent is skewed due to a hiatus on my part) seem to be adding more granularity to immediate gameplay - dirty clothes, tracking vitamins and minerals. I saw a suggestion for making car windshields get obscured by dirt/gore - pretty cool, and I think it’s in part because vehicles tend to be something you work towards and build up in complexity, rather than an immediate feature you must deal with from Day One Hour One.

There was a proposed change to how book reading and recipe learning works, that relied more on having the items with you and learning things over time, rather than recipes being an asset one earns through sheer-force button spam. That’s a good move - again, it creates a sense of increasing game complexity over time instead of front-loading the number of things the player must immediately address.

I still need to read over the game’s code structure myself and try to learn more about how it does it’s thing. I know my suggestions are more related to game pacing rather than the intricacies of individual features, but it is all I can provide at the moment. I am hoping there is a way to continue to add in new features for players who like complexity of gameplay, without also scaring the shit out of those who haven’t been here to “grow along with the game” as it were.

I feel like the above example of ‘dirty clothing’ versus ‘dirty windshield’ is a decent example of ‘immediately annoying’ versus ’ only becomes a problem as the player grows’.

Though I really wish that making that role would be an easy thing, I think it’s almost impossible, it would simply be too muddy:
-What is worth showing in the forums and what isn’t?
-Is it worth giving attention to something that has just been added to be approved to the game or should we wait for it to be potentially merged? And would that be too late?
-How much of the game’s systems should this person know? I, for one, don’t know why two vehicles can’t go in a single tile, but there is people that do. Those small things are relevant.
-What if this person doesn’t consider this change that is about to be merged something good and doesn’t talk about it?

It would be hard. I wish it could be easier, I really do.
The only thing I can really do right now is suggest developers to, when checking out a part of the development that might be controversial (that would mean, for example, having a few opposers or maybe this dev itself being the opposer) to show them here. A forum is, ironically, a really bad place to have a discussion, but I do think there are great people around who would surely give a good and fresh point of view in the situation.

It has already happened before, and some good insight in this sea of pages and pages of answers are always given. Specially from the people that make mods and know very well how stuff is done, at least the few I know.

code isn’t so scary. But github is.

I’ve enjoyed all these features - I never used to use clothing from zombies anyway, due to the idea they were too messy.

I’ve always assumed all the features since a stable release are WIP and yet to be finalized as it is. Freaking out over how they’re currently implemented seems premature and reactionary - as well as a tad bit entitled.

In the end a lot of these changes are entirely subjective as to whether they’re better or not. I’m lucky in that what I want from the game has pretty much matched up with what’s been happening. I don’t even know who the current active devs are.

Not all ideas or opinions are equal - some are more informed than others, some are more in tune with the vision the devs have for what they want. And some are from Lazycat…

Don’t say it’s name! It gives it more power!

The overages I got after navigating GitHub… The overreliance on git shell due to the incomplete GUI, the obscure command needed to selectively pull changes, the unnecessary button clicks needed to update your repo…

The overages I got after navigating GitHub… The overreliance on git shell due to the incomplete GUI, the obscure command needed to selectively pull changes, the unnecessary button clicks needed to update your repo…

I knew it. It IS a scary thing, in a very universal way!

I’m a cat and an anarchist when it comes to slinging ideas. I either ponder their potential consequences or not. Often I feel I’m not competent enough to ponder them out loud, so my rants can include an unvoiced wish that says “Help me figure this thing out, for better or worse.” And… like… I will say a thousand ideas even if it means 999 of them are bad or irrelevant. Finding the one is all that matters.

I mean… brainstorming is the word.

A lot of the ideas I see on this forum and on github are ones where the person didn’t give even one thought to the consequences they can have to the dynamics of the game. Majority of them are “It would be neat if…” without much thought put into them, or even worse, they try to justify terrible ideas (for a game) with “but in real life…”.

Realism in of itself isn’t a bad thing, but it must be justified by what it actually ADDS to game play instead of this backward logic where it’s about, trying to justify ideas that have a terrible impact on game play, by “realism” factor.

Hm. I just put it here:
http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13315.0

Really no comment on this?

I just fixed up and refitted a security van, nothing fancy. It took several hours real time and close to 2 seasons game time. Most of that time was spent doing nothing at all. Literally nothing. Hands off the keyboard, watching the clock tick, 0 interaction with the game.

Whoever is behind this needs to be taken out to the wood shed and shot.

This is a mantra I recall having to beat fellow contributors and devs over the head with, back in my day. Realism needs to add to gameplay, not detract from it.

And to reinforce the pint made back on page 14 (if I recall), we would likewise not have 18 pages of this discussion if the devs kept that in mind.

[quote=“Random_dragon, post:271, topic:12504”]This is a mantra I recall having to beat fellow contributors and devs over the head with, back in my day. Realism needs to add to gameplay, not detract from it.

And to reinforce the pint made back on page 14 (if I recall), we would likewise not have 18 pages of this discussion if the devs kept that in mind.[/quote]

If I spam the C:DDA Design Outline will any dev, specially those that accept PRs, read it?

Somehow I doubt that. More likely once Kevin gets back, he’ll either lock the thread without addressing any of the valid concerns hidden in this thread, or he’ll throw a hissy fit and THEN lock the thread.

Sorry to break this to you but you were neither a fellow nor a devloper. Kevin ejected you from the project as you were very disruptive for the minimal contributions we received from you. Notoriety is not the same thing as significance. See Contributors to CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA · GitHub and note the enormous number of contributors above your account, none of whom are claiming such a status.

As Coolthulhu told you earlier:

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:170, topic:12504”]I now fully remember why Kevin wanted you out. You’re doing the exact same thing now as you were back then.
Do you have Asperger’s that’s making you not realize that bringing up “someone disagreed with me, what a bitch” in unrelated threads is shitty behavior?
It’s not even talking back to someone, just going around and saying “you know that dude? he sucks”.[/quote]

So to be clear your contributions have been minimal and you’ve made yourself unwelcome by multiple developers. There wasn’t an option to ban users from Github when Kevin first ejected you from the project but that does exist now if you want to force the issue? Finally stop submitting PR’s via third parties (especially given they have introduced bugs that need resolving in further PR’s) then using them as an excuse to resurface.

You’ve effectively had a second and third chance in Kevins absence but you still couldn’t improve. Now is the time to leave gracefully.

Please take the personal discussion of Random_Dragon’s/Kevin’s github history elsewhere than this thread. If there’s anything to be gleaned from here by devs, this is gonna bury it.

Sorry to break this to you but you were neither a fellow nor a devloper. Kevin ejected you from the project as you were very disruptive for the minimal contributions we received from you. Notoriety is not the same thing as significance. See Contributors to CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA · GitHub and note the enormous number of contributors above your account, none of whom are claiming such a status.[/quote]

I said fellow contributors and devs. As in contributors (which I was at one point), and devs. Thank you for berating me and making light of the few decent good contributions I made, over the lack of a comma.

To avoid further derailment, I’m taking this to PM.

The PM move is appreciated.

Assuming Mugling actually bothers to respond.

My point still stands, realism is only good if it compliments gameplay, a concept that seems to have been ignored by far too many contributors.

[quote=“Random_dragon, post:278, topic:12504”]Assuming Mugling actually bothers to respond.

My point still stands, realism is only good if it compliments gameplay, a concept that seems to have been ignored by far too many contributors.[/quote]

I like your Arcana mod very much, and I agree with your general point here, but they are right man - give it a rest. You’re not helping yourself - you’re alienating even the people that should be on your side.

THINK that first comment, don’t post it.

Sorry. I need to calm down a bit before I get into any further discussions.