Zero skill level should mean that I know nothing about it

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

I don’t know, flavor text for everything sounds awesome to me.

[Savidiy]

I did not say that the zero skill of driving means that you can never drive a car. I meant the past character and the fact that it takes a little practice to understand. But no chance, jump in the car and drive away from the zombies if you never learned to drive a before or after the cataclysm.

Now I see no reason to take any skills in cataclysm, because I know like half an hour to shake them all up 2 levels. It becomes a ritual.

When I say that 0 in mechanics does not allow to see the degree of damage to the vehicle. I’m talking about internal injuries. If the engine is sticking out armature - it hardly works, but that he is dirty or spaced radiator doesn’t mean anything.

About the weapons I have one example. Standard equipment 30 rounds AK-74 clip is 33/38/43 (excellent/good/fair) seconds in ideal conditions, clip in the hand and rounds in front of you. This is a real requirement, and after some practice you can learn to perform it. If we complicate the situation and clip insert into the gun, rounds put in the pocket. That time may take several tens of times, up to ten minutes. In FPS this is better not to remember - dynamics lost. But the game of survival may know of such things, especially in the real minute can be laid and some days and a few seconds, depending on the situation.
I only talk about my personal experience. If you think that it is so easy to try.

[Cherry]

So this is basically added difficulty for newbs and people who don’t spend points in skills.

Yeah it doesn’t stop us from raiding houses and finding Mechanics Monthly to skip it though.

I believe I’m playing a zombie apocalypse game where I get to eat spaghetti bolognese and blast alien scientists with fusion rifles. Not necessarily a gun cleaning, ammo fumbling, bullet counting simulator.

[FunsizeNinja123]

[quote=“Cherry, post:23, topic:4348”]So this is basically added difficulty for newbs and people who don’t spend points in skills.

Yeah it doesn’t stop us from raiding houses and finding Mechanics Monthly to skip it though.

I believe I’m playing a zombie apocalypse game where I get to eat spaghetti bolognese and blast alien scientists with fusion rifles. Not necessarily a gun cleaning, ammo fumbling, bullet counting simulator.[/quote]

Yup. There’s a line between games and reality, people.

[Binky]

[quote=“Cherry, post:23, topic:4348”]So this is basically added difficulty for newbs and people who don’t spend points in skills.

Yeah it doesn’t stop us from raiding houses and finding Mechanics Monthly to skip it though.

I believe I’m playing a zombie apocalypse game where I get to eat spaghetti bolognese and blast alien scientists with fusion rifles. Not necessarily a gun cleaning, ammo fumbling, bullet counting simulator.[/quote]

From the ‘about’ page on the website: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead is a roguelike set in a post-apocalyptic world. Surviving is difficult: you have been thrown, ill-equipped, into a landscape now riddled with monstrosities of which flesh eating zombies are neither the strangest nor the deadliest.

This is supposed to be a survival game, and part of survival is that things don’t work well - it’s not supposed to be a shoot-em-up- fork it if that’s the way you want to go.
Requiring skill to use an advanced weapon is something that all RPGs do, and makes a lot of sense balance wise.

[Cherry]

Once again, I wouldn’t mind if there was a bunch of spamming flavor messages subtly telling me that I need more rifle/smg/shotgun/etc skill to use the weapon properly. Heck I still would vote for weapon specific masteries.

It makes it more fun to start your adventure with slingshots, then bows, then moving on to firearms. Not necessarily finding a basement full of bullets and winning the game.

[Jakers]

I agree and disagree with this post, but my main attention is drawn to the survival skill.

For example, how would I know how to butcher a bear if I didn’t train survival for like my whole life? Only people like Bear Grills would know how to do that properly (how ironic).

So perhaps a message like this should come up when attempting to butcher some of the larger animals, because I’m pretty sure I would be able to get a little meat off a squirrel, at least:

You have no idea where to start butchering that animal! (Survival skill too low, can’t butcher)

And maybe the levels should be something like:

Rabbit/squirrel (Tiny Size) = 0 skill needed
Cat/lemur (Small Size) = 1 skill needed
Dog/coyote (Medium Size) = 2 skill needed
Bear/moose (Large Size) = 3 skill needed

Of course, you shouldn’t need a skill level for zombies. Who even gives a damn about their meat. Also I think there should be a chance depending on your skill level for survival and/or cooking to light a fire. Maybe even add a little to the fire system, because I do feel a bit miffed when I manage to set fire to a bush in one attempt and happily cook my fresh moose chops with it.

[kevin.granade]

I think the suggestions from the first post are all good ideas, but along with making 0 skill be really knowing nothing about the skill in question, probably have skills default to 1, give a character point back if you drop it to 0, and display a warning that 0 can be really difficult. Skill level 1 would represent average ability.
In other words, make total lack of knowledge in some area an optional challenge you can take on, not the default.

In particular I really like the “you can’t tell exactly what this thing is” result of low skill level. For example oxycodone (along with other painkillers) might just be identified as “a painkiller”.

In practice 0 driving skill already kind of represents a “never even seen a car” level of ability with all the random swerving that happens <_<

[EkarusRyndren]

Just a few notes…

Any idiot can use a gun. Mind you not accurately, but it’s not that difficult a procedure. It’s not possible to hold a gun comfortably in a way that you’d be firing to your left or right. For the most part if you’re handed a ‘gun’ “the loud end” is going to end up away from you.

The delightful “You’re too low skill level to use this gun” is too damn gamey.

As far as “Burning water” is concerned I get that it’s just a metaphor but it’s again, a bad example. If you give a 12 year old a box of mac and cheese, a jug of milk, a measuring cup, a stick of butter, and an oven. They might burn it, but they’re going to get it right, you know why?

There are directions on the back that are in painfully simple english.

Butchering is another one that a skill level doesn’t affect what you /can/ butcher but what you can butcher successfully. An unskilled person might go to hack up a cow and get a great deal of the distasteful parts, but you’re not gonna look at the knife and the cow then go “I CAN’T DO IT. WHAT MAGIC DO THE BUTCHERS USE? WHAT IS THIS WIZARDRY?!”

Electronics and computers are a bit different. Disassembling it might work some of the time with no skill, but you risk breaking something while doing it, or being unable to put it back together. Computers are a similar thing, if you don’t believe me, do a quick search for people who’ve “Sped up” their computer by “deleting system32”

Driving would be hit and miss, most modern vehicles have automatic transmission, all that fancy crap. A “new” driver /might/ be able to learn, but struggle. Especially at high speeds, in the rain, etc.

Tailoring is tricky because at most you’d “fail to repair, but waste lots of thread” I don’t really see how one can make a hole worse with a needle and thread, but that’s just me.

Mechanics is complicated. Some things are relatively simple provided you’ve got a handbook of some kind (Changing a belt?) and welding, once it’s using a “fuel” (I think someone said something about welding rods?) could have a “You attempt to weld the part onto your vehicle, but it doesn’t hold and falls of.” It’d also work with Duct Tape “You attempt to duct tape the frame on, but it’s far too heavy and falls off”

I don’t know if I’m missing any skills here but you get the point.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

Someone has never tried to shoot a gun with a right side ejection port with their left shoulder. Maintaining and working with a gun, especially the more complicated or strange ones, isn’t as easy as you think. I shudder to think of what one has to do to reload the calico without the speed loader for it.

[EkarusRyndren]

Someone has never tried to shoot a gun with a right side ejection port with their left shoulder. Maintaining and working with a gun, especially the more complicated or strange ones, isn’t as easy as you think. I shudder to think of what one has to do to reload the calico without the speed loader for it.

Correct. But as it stands the game simulates a novice trying to use the weapon, that is to say at a “noob” level you’re still going to get the bullets going in the general direction you want them to go in. Sure you might end up with casings in your face, sure you might end up with an increasing amount of jamming, but it’s not like you’re going to pick up a rifle and shove the barrel up your ass, you know?

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

“You squeeze the trigger. Nothing happens. Perplexed, you look down the barrel, BANG! You have died.”

But yeah, I know what you mean. I’ve mostly just been suggesting ideas for ways a gun might fail in combat on you and how your skill level could affect how your character reacts.

[Binky]

I don’t think it should be that low/not enough skill should equal not being able to use something at all, but just that you’d be terrible at it and are prone to hurt yourself. My friend from the UK with no experience in weapons fired a shotgun and couldn’t use his left arm for weeks - similarly, butchering an animal and accidentally puncturing the guts will very, very quickly ruin your meal, and is pretty easy to do without some sort of actual direction and training.

Definitely shouldn’t be a ‘you can’t even pick up this rifle because you don’t have enough skill in it’, as that’d be really annoying.

I really do think this would add so much more to a sense of progress - really hope someone finds the time to implement it!

[timtek]

[quote=“Binky, post:25, topic:4348”][quote=“Cherry, post:23, topic:4348”]So this is basically added difficulty for newbs and people who don’t spend points in skills.

Yeah it doesn’t stop us from raiding houses and finding Mechanics Monthly to skip it though.

I believe I’m playing a zombie apocalypse game where I get to eat spaghetti bolognese and blast alien scientists with fusion rifles. Not necessarily a gun cleaning, ammo fumbling, bullet counting simulator.[/quote]

From the ‘about’ page on the website: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead is a roguelike set in a post-apocalyptic world. Surviving is difficult: you have been thrown, ill-equipped, into a landscape now riddled with monstrosities of which flesh eating zombies are neither the strangest nor the deadliest.

This is supposed to be a survival game, and part of survival is that things don’t work well - it’s not supposed to be a shoot-em-up- fork it if that’s the way you want to go.
Requiring skill to use an advanced weapon is something that all RPGs do, and makes a lot of sense balance wise.[/quote]

It doesn’t say it’s a survival game though, it says it’s a roguelike set in a post apocalyptic world, and that survival is difficult. To me that doesn’t mean the game is about surviving, it says that survival is just one of the challenges you face. The world has just ended, so supplies are everywhere, that alone drops the survival difficultly down quite a bit. It reminds me of zombieland. Sure they had to struggle to stay alive but they were never short on supplies or anything like that because the world had just ended and they could just walk into any building and take what they needed. Our characters are alive in a time where they still have tons of access to the things that make survival easier, how exactly should that be remedied without making the time and place null and void?

[Binky]

It doesn’t say it’s a survival game though, it says it’s a roguelike set in a post apocalyptic world, and that survival is difficult. To me that doesn’t mean the game is about surviving, it says that survival is just one of the challenges you face. The world has just ended, so supplies are everywhere, that alone drops the survival difficultly down quite a bit. It reminds me of zombieland. Sure they had to struggle to stay alive but they were never short on supplies or anything like that because the world had just ended and they could just walk into any building and take what they needed. Our characters are alive in a time where they still have tons of access to the things that make survival easier, how exactly should that be remedied without making the time and place null and void?

The Kickstarter does say that it’s a ‘survivalcraft’ game though. Not to hammer on with this point, but it also says “You are a survivor of the end of the world. You’ll have to use every ounce of strength, courage, ingenuity and resolve if you want a chance to survive in the new world born from the ashes of the old.” - that certainly doesn’t make it sound like a run and gun ARPG where you can just kick back with your laser rifle and blast everything away.

Admittedly, it’s not trying to be something like Unreal world which is hardcore survival and nothing else, but I don’t think any of the main devs are wanting it to go in the direction of a top down blast-em-up with a bit of survival tacked on.

[Ander_Hammer]

‘Survival’ does not mean ‘always kicking and scratching to live’, much in the same way that an FPS usually doesn’t stick you with the pistol for the whole game and most RPGs don’t force you to use only the first character with weapons from the first town for most of the story. At the start, you have to survive. The game opens up depending on how well you succeed.

I know it wasn’t really explicitly suggested, but I’m not particularly thrilled by the concept of low weapons skills causing magic gun fumbles, and as I understand it, most rifles don’t seem to come with scopes mounted, so ‘scope eye’ isn’t going to be a problem. Most of the potential issues suggested for low firearms skill are things that one would generally quickly learn to avoid or treat with care, possibly represented by the faster training of the first few skill levels. Gun malfunctions aren’t particularly common on Cata’s scale.

[Cherry]

Level Requirements: The thread

I say yes for some weapons.
Example. You need like level 8 electronics to make a fusion blaster rifle or NX17 rifle.
Shouldn’t you need a lvl 8 electronics to pew-pew it?

Unless you install the “User-friendly trigger” mod. Which skips that skill check.

hehe, this is a stupid idea why did i post this

Anyways, I state once again that I like that higher-caliber pow-pow guns should have skill requirements that cause you to “Oops shot my foot” if you don’t meet them. I just realized that they do this to stop noobs from being expert sniper users at level 1 in fallout new vegas

[Inadequate]

Why? If weapon maintenance was a thing, electronics skill might be a factor. But even by the standards everyone else is suggesting, electronics skill has nothing to do with it. Firearms maybe.

[Savidiy]

Thanks for your feedback.
I do not suggest to “Your skill level is too low”. I suggest jammed weapon whitch you anyway repair. A professional will do it quickly during the battle, as a novice after, if it survives. And so on. Skill affects the action, but does not prohibit it.

[Cherry]

Yeah that sounds flavorful and fun!
Ooops gun broke better pull out my slingshot. Lvl 0 Firearm Class skill
Oh no, (gun jargon problem), 1 turn later nvm fixed it. Lvl 5 Firearm Class skill

So how would you imagine that the malfunctions play out?
Do you automatically try to fix it when it breaks, using your turn?
Or does it gain a general “Jammed” status that you attempt to fix by pressing the reload key?
Other ideas?