Yet another Dynamic Difficulty thread: System philosophy

So here we are again.
Now, I’d like to suggest a philosophy for the dynamic difficulty system

The point is simple: the game tracks all player’s stats.

Here is what’s going on.

Each enemy must have some kind of “level” stat associated with them, where basic zombies are level 0, hulks are almost the highest level and so on. There also must be some kind of normal distribution table which determines what enemies the game spawns as the player develops. The whole thing is based around player level, which is a global variable.

The level can only increase (!) and there are many ways it might increase.

First of all, the game keeps track on player’s inventory. Each item should be tagged as melee weapon, ranged weapon and armor or miscellaneous. Each weapon also has an associated level, for example a pipe would be level 0, knife spear would be level 1, so it goes all the way up to katana. The same goes for armor and ranged weapons.
The game must also determine the type of player’s character, whether it’s a melee build, archer build, unarmed build, firearms build and so on. The type is determined by skills and associated weapon usage. If a character has a lot of melee skill and had used katana a lot in past, the character is considered melee fighter. There must a certain threshold for determining the type since each player has to go through melee stage anyway. Anyways, once the type of character is determined, it cannot be changed unless the new possibility arises and surpasses the older one, so if mentioned character started using a gun, he’d need to make around the same amount of kills as he’d done with katana.
Once the type is determined, the game finds the highest by level respective weapon and throws it into the formula. So for melee build the firearms have no meaning, only melee weapons.

Then the game checks player’s clothing. The formula here is a little big more complicated. The game should determine just how sturdy the player is. The general idea here is that the more body parts are covered by higher level armor, the more advanced the character is.

Artifacts are special items and merely finding them [not even picking up] is already enough to increase the variable.

CBMs and mutations are thrown into the formula as well.

Now are the items. Miscellaneous items are tracked too, however they have no associated levels and the game merely tracks how many items went through player’s hands whether it’s done by moving into the inventory or into a wheelbarrow. This way you keep how many items the player have had throughout the whole session and therefore the game difficulty also increases with this.

Time spent also should play a role here, but no so much.

Now the hardest part: vehicles. The game keeps track of vehicles in player’s possession. In order for a vehicle to become player’s property, it needs to be accelerated by player through controls. Shortly speaking, if a character enters a vehicle, takes control of it and changes its speed - it is deemed working and becomes player’s property. From now on this vehicle is tracked intensively.

Cars are a great way to increase the level and here’s how its done.
First of all, car’s mass plays a huge role. The more massive player’s car is, the more level it created.
Second, you need to keep track of car’s parts. Removing a part doesn’t do anything, but installing a part might level up the vehicle. If a character installs some kind of armor, the car’s level is greatly increased even if it’s just one armor piece. Merely installing something already means the player has access to that part. Now is the most crucial part: the game must track if a car has minifridge, welding rig, chem. set and all that stuff. If ALL of them were installed at some point by the player, the car is considered a mobile base and greatly increases the difficulty.
Finally, cargo space. The more space was used at some point by player, the more level the car gets. So if you once got 1000 cargo space occupied, it will never decrease.

Finally, throwing all that into the final formula, we get the player’s level.
So now what? That level actually determines the chance that a higher level enemy will spawn.
Say, for example, that we have a chance of spawning a basic zombie here. Ok, let’s imagine the player’s level is very high and therefore there is a 25% chance that instead of level 0 basic zombie, they’ll get level 1 acidic zombie. Then we roll again and with 6.25% chance we’ll get level 2 shocker. And even with that there is a 1.5625% chance of spawning some level 3 asshole here.
However, the level can’t increase the probability infinitely, there is a cap. Instead of increasing the probability, it will start to buff enemies’ stats instead.

There you have it.
This way there is no such problem as getting too hard because player is too slow.

my thoughts.

-we do have a(n arbitrary) level system. evolution and the ‘difficulty’ stat, as well as mon-density, spawn points, et al.

-hordes are randomly composed, therefore wed expect to ser ocxassional high level critters. a levmin and levmax might be mire flexible. a bell-ish shape to the spawn frequency?

-this isnt supposed to be a ‘die at your own pace’ game. it was recently pointed out that at one point every game opened with the dialouge ‘this is how you died …’

-Evos are incredibly fast, with vanilla topping out mid-autumn and my mod doing so in early 2nd spring. slowing down the player would be better, imo, than increasing the zoms/critters

-guns/factional npcs are a rarity. deadliest weapons and armor of the game and they are almost never used against the PC.

-again, instead of increasing/decreasing Critter power, we should be slowing down crafting and construction. a 90 minute jacket is a jacket I wouldnt wear.

-perhaps a ‘Cataclysm light’ standard would be nice, or letting the player start in a (good) refugee center in a decent location would help. early game is hardest, and a revamped tutorial at a refugee center woud be tops.

-we can tweak most aspects of the game’s difficulty already. work-to-payoff this would be a large project consuming a lot of time when Id rather see the desert progress more. or oceans. or mutation overhaul. or grenadiers who target monsters with hacks. or poisons on weapons. or factions. or de-hardcoding things.

im not against dynamic difficulty explicitly, but i dont think its for the best right now

Personal opinion - I completely disagree with EditorRus.

Admittedly, the whole question of player scaling has been a pretty hot topic ever since Bethesda introduced it in … Oblivion? Skyrim? I can’t remember. The problem with level scaling is that the sense of achievement of improving is mitigated by the fact that the game just keeps matching your strength … as opposed to getting your ass handed to you and then increasing ion strength and being able to overcome the challenge.

Having said that, there are definitely some problems with the mid-end game in CDDA. I raised this in a few threads, but Vehicles are the ultimate destroyer, with some elements of mutation and bionics being right up there as well.

[quote=“Michi, post:3, topic:11969”]Personal opinion - I completely disagree with EditorRus.

Admittedly, the whole question of player scaling has been a pretty hot topic ever since Bethesda introduced it in … Oblivion? Skyrim? I can’t remember. The problem with level scaling is that the sense of achievement of improving is mitigated by the fact that the game just keeps matching your strength … as opposed to getting your ass handed to you and then increasing ion strength and being able to overcome the challenge.

Having said that, there are definitely some problems with the mid-end game in CDDA. I raised this in a few threads, but Vehicles are the ultimate destroyer, with some elements of mutation and bionics being right up there as well.[/quote]

Completely agree with Michi here.
I think first it was in Morrowind with the leveled lists, but i dislike this system.
In my opinion the world cannot scale with the player’s level, the player himself must know when to flee, when to fight, what he can and cannot do.
This makes for more immersive gameplay and gives the feeling of progress and accomplishment.
But, again, i can agree that (1) hordes can make the game quite hard for new players and (2) More balancing of some mid-late game paths could help. CBM overhaul is on the way, right?

‘rebalancing’ is another name for ‘limitations’

It basicaly means take an OP or UP system and try to bring it up to scale so that it is not making the game too hard/easy.
Limitations are one way to do it - and if done right they are not a problem really.

I mean the CBM slot limitations are basically what the original Deus Ex had. While not really very limiting, they made for some decision making. (actually CBMs == Deus Ex augmentations the way i always saw it, but with much less limitations)

Morrowind had no autoleveling IIRC. Some oblivion mods did that too (OOO). And it worked perfectly, you could try to loot any dungeon with artifacts or do any quest even with lvl 1 character. With a clever use of stealth, consumables, ranged attacks, magic items and racial abilities it was definitely possible. Meanwhile with autoleveling you could get a couple of levels by pickpocketing, jumping and talking to people, and then you go outside to behold bandits in daedric armor. You already mentioned no sense of progress too. Such system in cata will undoubtedly lead to all kinds of failures. Like if you spend a couple hundred .22 ratshot and conical ball to hunt swamp critters for exp, the game will assume you are a badass marksman and swarm you with hulks. Or if you’ve built a base with engine, fridges, forges and other stuff, the game will assume this is a deathmobile and swarm you with hulks again. Or if your car had got immobilised in the city, or your katana got stuck and you had to run away from the fight, but the game had already assumed you owned a car\katana and the hulks have been already spawned, what now?

Oh, and one more thing. Evolution is okay-ish. Evolution is NOT autoleveling, because it doesn’t care about the player, is just happens by itself. What’s the difference, you may ask.
With evolution, you want to craft that katana ASAP.
With autoleveling, you want to clear the city with a nail board to avoid spawning bigger threats. Adds more tedium.
Evolution - you spend those .22 ratshots to improve your marksmanship.
Autoleveling - the optimal strategy is not to use them, not even to dissasemble them and craft a grenade. Guess what? Just throw them away.
To sum up, autoleveling will lead to a boring and tedious playstyle. If you want to play optimally, that is. But if you won’t, you are going to get rekt by hulks, otherwise it would mean the system is not working properly.

Why wouldn’t an autoleveller track the type and quantity of monsters you kill and base difficulty around that?

Admittedly, the whole question of player scaling has been a pretty hot topic ever since Bethesda introduced it in .... Oblivion? Skyrim? I can't remember. The problem with level scaling is that the sense of achievement of improving is mitigated by the fact that the game just keeps matching your strength ... as opposed to getting your ass handed to you and then increasing ion strength and being able to overcome the challenge.

Personally for me it’s the other way around: it’s boring when nothing can stop you except a nuke to the face. Once you reach that stage, the danger is only limited to certain places.

In my opinion the world cannot scale with the player's level, the player himself must know when to flee, when to fight, what he can and cannot do.
This is a problem here. By the time player reaches "advanced" stage, most of your average threats are just nuisance that you just have to endure rather than fight. If you've got a katana in your hands, Repair Nanobots CBM in your ass and Internal Furnace CBM in your chest, you are pretty much safe from most nonspecialized zombies that are everywhere and overwhelming.
But, again, i can agree that (1) hordes can make the game quite hard for new players and (2) More balancing of some mid-late game paths could help. CBM overhaul is on the way, right?
Hordes is a rather neat idea, but the whole system is so hard to balance that it makes it very unstable in difficulty. At one point hordes are evaded at all costs because they will fuck you up, but after some time you find out these horders are made of zombies that pose no threat and it becomes a boredom to clear it out.
Like if you spend a couple hundred .22 ratshot and conical ball to hunt swamp critters for exp, the game will assume you are a badass marksman and swarm you with hulks.
You have to have skills leveled up to use weapons efficiently. And there is no way you are not a badass if you can do it. For most part my system tracks skills which are the main meter of progress. Items are another thing, but they are not that important in the system.
Or if you've built a base with engine, fridges, forges and other stuff, the game will assume this is a deathmobile and swarm you with hulks again.
That is unless you build your static car without using it first. By that I mean you can "construct a vehicle" and make a static base. It will only get tracked when you make it move.
Or if your car had got immobilised in the city, or your katana got stuck and you had to run away from the fight, but the game had already assumed you owned a car\katana and the hulks have been already spawned, what now?
You'll get wrecked. This system is very unforgivable for fuckups.
With autoleveling, you want to clear the city with a nail board to avoid spawning bigger threats. Adds more tedium.
Unfortunately your skills are tracked and when you do that, you'll still get some skills and it won't become that easy to clear the city. Unless you abuse skill rust to keep it close to zero, but that is limited by that:
Time spent also should play a role here, but no so much.
This is supposed to counteract that. You should have more than enough time to level up, but you definitely shouldn't have that much time to abuse skill rust.
Why wouldn't an autoleveller track the type and quantity of monsters you kill and base difficulty around that?
That's actually a pretty good idea, but that is really hard to balance and will lead to an exponential increase of difficulty. Say you killed 10 basic zombies and got 10 exp, ok, here are level 2 bitches. You kill 10 of them and now you have 30 exp. Level 4 bastards -- 70 exp. Hulks -- 150 exp... oh shit. But to be fair each player is also developing exponentially and in, let's say, jumps. You jump from a weakling to a fairly balanced character, then a badass, then a superhero. There is almost nothing in between, but the power level can be easily seen as grown disproportionately. You kill less creatures to not get too far -- the game spawns even more dangerous creatures, because it takes that much. You kill more creatures -- the game spawns even more dangerous creatures in response.

Generally speaking my whole thread is about philosophy of that system. I can definitely say it will be a bitch to balance the whole thing out, but what do you expect? This is fair.

Autolevelling leads to having no sense of progress. That’s the trouble with it. Instead of using a good weapon, you prefer to go with crappy ones to avoid hulks. And why the world revolves around the player character? There could be other survivors who are just as badass

Autolevelling leads to having no sense of progress. That's the trouble with it. Instead of using a good weapon, you prefer to go with crappy ones to avoid hulks. And why the world revolves around the player character? There could be other survivors who are just as badass

I’ve already explained that part

Instead of using a good weapon, you prefer to go with crappy ones to avoid hulks.

As of

And why the world revolves around the player character?
That's because it's a singleplayer roguelike game and the system suggested tries to counteract or at least greatly slow down any player becoming unstoppable.
There could be other survivors who are just as badass
Currently NPC are underdeveloped and they are extreme in their actions. On one hand they are mostly useless if you befriend them, but also extremely dangerous if you happen to make rivals with them and can easily one-shot you. Even if you manage to not get into such a situation, they still can pose a huge threat thanks to their general stupidity [NPC wields simple flamethrower in an enclosed space with flammable floor]. They might be badass, but they are still not intelligent. By the time you can resist NPC to a degree, you are already an unstoppable force for most zombies there are. Once you are immune to any shenaningas an NPC can pull off, there is literally nothing that can possibly stop you and you might as well commit suicide. There won't be any story anymore and no point in playing. That is unless you enjoy playing sandbox, but what's the point of developing and survival then?

Why not just counteract this process by nerfing the exact things that lead to it, instead of implementing a very hard to balance and not as flawless(as proven by abovementioned bethesda games) system?
What makes a player unstoppable?
Bionics - slot limits are WiP. More bionics should have downsides, like adrenaline pump(comedown afterwards). Like, targeting system messing with your melee because it thinks you hold a rifle, or an internal furnace increasing your temperature when used, leading to overheating in warm months, stuff like that.
Mutations - make labs way more dangerous, recipe books and good bionics should show up only in labs. Butchering zombies should give only the crappy civilian CMBs that you can craft yourself or find in store(flashlight, storage, battery system)
Martial arts - remove stunlocking, maybe by giving it diminishing returns like in WoW, for example(1st stun stuns for 100 moves, 2nd - 50, 3rd - 25, then the monster becomes immune), nerf damage, limitless counterstrikes, dodges.
Deathmobiles - lifting and engine failures made early vehicle acquiring way harder, there must be some way to nerf late game trucks too.
Armor - there are mods to blacklist survivor gear and power armor. Trenchcoats and shirts are not overpowered anymore since reinforcing stopped giving more armor.

Basically my way of fixing that would be to force the player to make a tradeoff between vehicle armor and utility.
How to do that you say?

  1. Make collisions at speed be way more damaging to a normal vehicle, even if the colliding object is relatively light. Crashing into bushes and boulders at 100kph is not what civilian cars are designed to sustain.

  2. Make the item parts that can withstand such punishment heavier. Forget about mil-spec materials. ‘Normal’ armor has to be heavy or not too effective. Removing, repairing and installing mil-spec armor should be prone to failure and require high skill.
    Even with mil-spec, protection against crashes would be up to par with heavy steel, but protection against explosives could be better. This is correct as is.

  3. Balance the rest out with available engine power, possibility to install multiple engines, friction and fuel scarcity, that one cannot have a vehicle able to carry loads of stuff, reach good speeds and still have enough armor to trample everything in the game without wrecking the vehicle. At least not from mid-game onwards.

Basically achieving what i describe should still be possible near late-game, but not guaranteed to happen for every late-game survivor with knowledge of the game. It should be a goal in itself.

PS. Yup i know that the devs are aware of deathmobiles and stuff IS done, mostly in the directions i envisage. So no complaints from me really.

Deathmobiles are a reward.

Poor pathing is more of an issue, as the critters dont recognize the danger of a 12 ton steel reinforced monster speeding towards them at 90mph.

Zombies, thats more fogivable. But anything hostile to you will gleefully ignore the steel tank strapped to your back in favor of pathing towards you. And on a similar token, they ignore the deathmobile entirely if they cant see you.

Nobody else has these things but the PC, and even turrets have a few issues getting through armor. Explosions dont cause secondary shrapnel to careen at the player inside the tank, and their is no penalty for making the vehicle topheavy, or other weight balance issues, such as putting all this loot into the back and nothing up front.

Make critters see the danger of these deathmobiles, have the smarter ones path out of the way, NPCs who have roadblocks, checkpoints, and traps that can put a dent into a vehicle, and (one day) implement limited NPC vehicles.

Cars are kind of OP in real life too. Go after one with a bat. You only win when its not moving.

pedit: And, and and and, the whole concept of building one in 2 weeks (1 season) is silly. You wrench off the frame of a volkswagon and then turn it into your front bumper? Theres no concept of shape for vehicles in CDDA. A huge advantage for the aspiring mechanic. Any piece can be interchanged for any other piece. A good start would be to have frames default shape represent a ‘class’ of shapes, to limit where it can go or what it can do.

Because, after all, you aren’t a 1 man steel-mill … are you? The frames have a pre-existing shape, and molding it require a lot of non-existent industry. And mechanically forcing it into a new shape weakens it.

And further making it so that our play-dough machines of death and doom cant be cobbled together out of 2 cars, weight balancing. But thats above too.

Actually you cannot kill a crowd of people with bats using a car. After running over a few (1? 3?) at speed the car will get wrecked and the rest will get you. Going slow (40kph?) might work better though. For a while. But on that occasion the people with the bats can dodge too.

Certainly, for just killing one thing (even a hulk-sized one), a steel object that weights 2-3 tons able to move at 80~160kph is an awesome weapon. But it is not designed to withstand that punishment for long and the collisions are dangerous for the driver. It is essentially a weapon that cannot be used for long that way.

But i agree with everything else you said.

PS. Installing tank cannons and las-turrets in a vehicle is just ridiculous of course. That why its not in mainline cata. A vehicle-mounted MG though should be good to kill man-sized and smaller things. With enough ammo.