Throwing martial arts

[VictorSegall]

But what, other than reduced aim penalties for movement, would a martial art involving throwing weapons add to the throwing of them that would be an accurate dipiction of an actual advantage that art would give with that weapon while THROWING it?

What does boxing do for a punch while throwing it? Half a thread ago:

Separate throwing weapons from throwing. That’s two skills, not * amount. All throwing weapon arts would use the one throwing weapons skill.

Throwing a “throwing weapon” while not in a martial art that has that weapon in it would throw the item as a generic. It would still throw, and would increase “throwing” skill, not “throwing weapons” skill.

Throwing a “throwing weapon” while in a correct martial art would allow defined techniques to trigger. Those techniques would account for the object being thrown correctly. Example: Throwing an axe while in Okichitaw style could stack cut and pierce onto the damage. Without the style, the axe throw would either do the damages on the weapon definition or the damages from generic weight & volume math. I would choose weight & volume.

Equiping a multipurpose weapon, like tomahawk, while using the correct style, would also trigger its melee tecs. E.g., you’d get the weapon+style-specific blocks, counters, etc.

Martial arts have “throwing arts” in them, as techniques within the style.

Done on separate skills so that plain “throwing”, with anything throwable whatsoever, has all of its balancing intact.

We’d decide later what deserves to go into the techniques, and would almost certainly do that in mods.

[Aabbcc]

*blink*
*Points at the sign saying who I was replying to on the previous post*
Victor has been mentioning martial arts throwing since about 10 hours ago, and has been promoting his idea of martial throwing consistently since that post he just quoted.

In general, I halfway like your proposal @Litppunk, I’d rather have something with a stronger effect at low skill level, but that can be done in your suggestion by toying with the thresholds for some beginner-friendly weapons.

Hmm john wick style fighting is what you probably thought I meant, but I was refering to something that was developed… I think in israel, using guns in CQC hand to hand combat.

Not really, because that’d be hitting with the weapon or alongside the weapon, not giving special effects triggered on shooting, which is the support Victor is going for.

Current code can handle CQC just fine, with the issue that guns are kinda fragile and not too good at it, so it’s better to just Taekwondo and kick the shit of anyone up close rather than weapon bashing.

[Litppunk]

blink

oh… OH derp XD sorry. Yeah, its pretty rough stage, but as a concept I think its probably the best way. The idea would be that you would have random (poor?) chance (dpending on the weapon?) of getting the specials triggered, skill would mean you could intentionally get the trigger the way you want.
It would probably be switchable similar to firemode on guns (once you had the skill to attempt hitting it with any particular part.)

Done on separate skills so that plain “throwing”, with anything throwable whatsoever, has all of its balancing intact.

auto triggering weapon styles I can see being benificial (I think i missed that first read.) but I don’t see how that would be throwing. Currently you don’t typically wield throwing weapons. Even if you are, it doesn’t effect the throwing itself, but would be benificial to someone using that throwing weapon. But why would Okichitaw give any kind of bonus to the throwing itself? is your general proficency with the weapon making you throw it better? That would be better represented by a straight XP boost on reading the book/ gaining the martial art.

[Aabbcc]

oh… OH derp XD sorry. Yeah, its pretty rough stage, but as a concept I think its probably the best way. The idea would be that you would have random (poor?) chance (dpending on the weapon?) of getting the specials triggered, skill would mean you could intentionally get the trigger the way you want.

It’d be relatively simple to expand it into poison/acid/fungicide coating, just add the appropriate special effect to the list on the weapon.

I also figure that it’d be easier to hit specially well with a rock than to do it with a thrown knife, the former would just need to hit in the right place, the later would need to hit in the right place , blade-first and possibly penetrate enough to get stuck.

Which you can get by playing with the thresholds of each individual weapon, which can just be put in the weapon’s json.

[VictorSegall]

Good thread split. ty

[kevin.granade]

Feel free to keep arguing if you want, but I’m splitting this out to its own thread to remove the detail from the hopefully more productive main thread.

In future, when discussion starts meandering away from the main topic, consider using the “reply as new thread” feature described here.

[VictorSegall]

Throwing debate

I don’t see how that would be throwing.

Defense triggers like blocks and parries would rely on wielding the weapon, and would be melee, you’re right. A fast weapon like throwing knives (daggers), shuriken, etc., could have preemptive hit chances. Would grabbing a handful of dirt and throwing it be a thrown attack?

Throwing debate

Currently you don’t typically wield throwing weapons.

I think knives, axe, hatchet, tomahawk, etc., should primarily be melee with a option to throw.

Throwing debate

But why would Okichitaw give any kind of bonus to the throwing itself?

I chose Okichitaw as a martial art form that includes tomahawk, because that’s the most plausible dual purpose axe, and tomahawk has literature on both forms.

Fundamentally, martial art improves the relevant weapons use above what non-practitioners can do. It’s in the existing techniques for the styles we have already. I struggle to understand this line of questioning, but you’re the third to ask.

Throwing debate

is your general proficency with the weapon making you throw it better? That would be better represented by a straight XP boost on reading the book/ gaining the martial art.

We have both book types already. XP books and style manuals are separate. Fighting styles give unique benefits that unguided practice can’t give. Not general proficiency. Mastery and/or exclusive knowledge. I’ve seen no good reason why this shouldn’t apply to throwing weapons.

[Litppunk]

So the reason for a damage bump would be… a better throwing teqnique specific to the weapon?
Again melee bonuses I can get, there are lots of things you can tweak in hand to hand, but theres no, “special knowledge” to throwing. If you have a fully formed instintual understanding of wieght distribution and the other factors, you would come to similar if not the same techniques that any book could teach you. If you would be better off with a fulcrum lower than the base of the handle you would, be mildy frustrated at that and WANT to add a small lanyard to the base. I don’t think anything funtions on that example specifically, but I can’t thin of a justifacation to a straight damage bump to throwing through martial arts.

If you are at that level, you are going to find really good, if not the best way to get your desired effects. Throwing is just a really simple concept that can be honed with practice to demigod like levels, same as many other skills in life.

[VictorSegall]

So the reason for a damage bump would be… a better throwing teqnique specific to the weapon?

Or the type.

theres no, “special knowledge” to throwing

Of course there is.

If you have a fully formed instintual understanding of wieght distribution and the other factors, you would come to similar if not the same techniques that any book could teach you.

Grossly underestimating reality, or grossly overestimating the averages.

The book is in play because that’s the mechanism the game uses.

There’s some obsession with how simple the act of a throw supposedly is, and from that an equal fixation on damages as the only possible improvement. Very counterproductive.

[Aabbcc]

VictorSegall, please provide an example of how Okichitaw (or any other throwing art you have in mind) makes someone special at throwing tomahawks that makes them unique compared than someone who just picked them and practiced a lot until they got it, or some crazy walking stereotype of a lumberjack.

Because you argue, argue, argue and keep arguing that it should provide this benefit, but you have yet to satisfy the why. How is Okichitaw special that it allows this extra damage to happen at all in the first place?

[Litppunk]

The book is in play because that’s the mechanism the game uses.

Yes the book represents knowledge that one can’t come up with themselves. NPC learning would be a more accurate but less likely for the player to run into. I have no problem with that, well I do, but more as a concept for this specific area, then actual protest for this being a method to learn anything, advanced throwing included.

There’s some obsession with how simple the act of a throw supposedly is, and from that an equal fixation on damages as the only possible improvement. Very counterproductive.

throwing is a very natural motion,with few ways to improve upon, using only the arm. I am “fixated” on damages because that is the only example you have given, and I would like you to extrapolate on why the damage would be a reasonable thing to add. I have less problem with the kind of examples I gave, like reduced aim penalty for movement, and things of that nature. Because martial arts do teach you body movements and placement. Please also note that most martial arts are formed by ONE individual, who has such a good understanding of their body, that they invent a new way to use it in combat.

Martial arts itself bothers me, and I would love to see a rework or more tweaks done to it, if I could think of any way to change it that would be better than what we have, the only thing I can think of would become an alert panel avalanche during melee fighting. As is, I can think of no improvements myself so will live with it.

Why are you fixated on throwing being difficult? because of that vid of the amateur throwing sticks more awkwardly then I’ve ever seen anyone accomplish before?

[VictorSegall]

please provide an example

Not repeating. You aren’t asking in good faith.

throwing is a very natural motion,with few ways to improve upon

Not repeating. You’ve decided to believe what I think is a nonsense understanding of how throwing works in real space.

[darktoes]

Not repeating. You aren’t asking in good faith.

Your example was that being familiar with a tomahawk should make you able to throw it better. That doesn’t make sense, since the martial art teaches you how to hit things with it, not how to throw it.

Not repeating. You’ve decided to believe what I think is a nonsense understanding of how throwing works in real space.

Children and primates can throw with relative accuracy and power. I don’t know what you think makes a good throw but unless you can provide some evidence that it’s more complicated than the way literally everyone throws things, go ahead.

[VictorSegall]

Your example was that being familiar with a tomahawk should make you able to throw it better. That doesn’t make sense, since the martial art teaches you how to hit things with it, not how to throw it.

Excessive concern for real world detail. Point is to provide a way to include the fact that when martial artists practice throwing they do it as part of their martial art, whether or not its consistent in formal presentation in literature.

Children and primates can throw with relative accuracy and power.

A baseless claim made on faith, without regard for the same details you’ve demanded.

some evidence that it’s more complicated than the way literally everyone throws things, go ahead.

An example is in the original throwing thread’s OP.

[Litppunk]

I think hes still refering to that video that ‘convinced’ him that throwing was difficult

[VictorSegall]

I think you’d be equally bad at it, considering the consensus thus far that people “just do it” because reasons.

[Litppunk]

Yeah, realism to fantasy balance is the whole of the debate, but I’ve come to believe that deadly throwing is significantly harder to learn than most others. Think it should be treated as a martial art.

Primitive Rock Sling: A worthless survival weapon?

For sake of argument, ignore that he’s using a sling. Notice his form and how he throws sticks. This is a model for the average person who feels like they’ve practiced throwing. Unskilled. I think he’s skill capped, and has reached his highest potential, until he’s trained by someone else. In CDDA, that someone else would have to be a book or NPC.

This seems to be the core of victors arguement. This guy is not throwing 0 he is throwing -1 maybe -2. throwing is not hard, if you are in any fashion comfortable with your own body. This guy is clearly not.

[VictorSegall]

throwing is not hard

Throwing effectively is. Consistent results is exceptionally hard.

This guy is not throwing 0 he is throwing -1 maybe -2. throwing is not hard, if you are in any fashion comfortable with your own body. This guy is clearly not.

What’s most unique about that guy is he had the courage to show video of himself not doing very well.

[darktoes]

Excessive concern for real world detail. Point is to provide a way to include the fact that when martial artists practice throwing they do it as part of their martial art, whether or not its consistent in formal presentation in literature.

That’s nonsense. When a taekwondo practitioner throws a baseball he doesn’t do it in a taekwondo manner. There are certain throwing weapons that are best thrown in specific manner, but that can be modelled with throwing skill, it doesn’t pertain in any way to martial arts.

A baseless claim made on faith, without regard for the same details you’ve demanded.

There you go. Monkeys can throw pretty well.

An example is in the original throwing thread’s OP.

I can’t find what you’re referring to.

Throwing effectively is. Consistent results is exceptionally hard.

Yeah, that’s why you practice a bit. It isn’t a martial art though, you don’t need specialised training.

[VictorSegall]

I can’t find what you’re referring to.

I’m surprised.

There you go. Monkeys can throw pretty well.

Exactly.