I find throwing OP

[Nibelung44]

This skill raises super fast. Without ever practicing it except in real combat/hunting situation, I’m at 7 whereas my – quite often used – melee is at 3. Also, it miss very rarely (even at low level). With throwing 7, my spare combat knives routinely do 50-60 damages with a critical headshot. I can also use it in close quarter without issue.

[BeerBeer]

Well, that sure as hell sounds OP. Throwing normal knives is also super unreliable as well. It should do damage like 50% of the time at most. I think we’ve all tried to throw knives as kids and seen how that worked…

[Aabbcc]

I don’t think unreliability is the way to go for higher levels. Just because a skill 0 kid can’t get it right doesn’t mean a skill 10 master should fail to consistently do damage, that’s just dumb.

What’s broken is the XP, it’s definitely advancing too fast, and possibly the amount of damage.

I say possibly because by the point you’re hitting melee or gun 7, you’re likely using some serious hardware that hurts a lot, and if you’re on unarmed you either grabbed a powerful MA from the start (which start doing very good damage either from the get go or by unarmed 3~4ish), or nabbed something at least decent by that point, possibly grabbing close combat mutations as well.

[Shadow86]

Yeah, it simply sounds like an XP gain issue, more than anything.

I’m not alarmed by the headshot damage. It’s comparable to a standard pistol headshot, isn’t it? And a knife blade through your face isn’t significantly less lethal than a pistol bullet in the same context.

[Greiger]

Yea I agree. One of my go to builds includes throwing knives and that build tends to become a god of zombie destruction really fast. Xp gain is definitely what seems to be the problem not reliability.

I used to dabble in knife throwing when I was a teenager, I’m by no means an expert. I never really threw a knife with that showy end over end technique you see in movies. In practical throwing you throw it in such a way that the sharp end is always pointed at your target. If you are a novice you can really easily screw that up too, but it’s much easier to make sure yer hitting with the sharp end than the showy spinny method you see in movies.

Even with the movie rotating method though with a knife you are familiar with, and a lot of practice, you should be able to get a penetrating hit well above 50% of the time. I went to an exhibition once where the throwers were very nearly 100%. From what I understand it’s all about knowing the distance you need to be to give your knife a full spin and a half from a proper rotating throw.

[BeerBeer]

I don’t think unreliability is the way to go for higher levels. Just because a skill 0 kid can’t get it right doesn’t mean a skill 10 master should fail to consistently do damage, that’s just dumb.

What I’m saying is that normal knives are a bad choice for throwing. Special throwing knives should work 100% of the time in the hands of an expert. I’m just basically asking “How often should a lvl 10 thrower hit with a combat knife, or a butter knife, and how much damage should he be able to do?” Let’s say:

Combat knife (hard to throw reliably, “unsuitable throwing weapon”)
0 throwing: 1-10 damage (50% of the time), 5-20 damage (50% of the time)
10 throwing: 1-20 damage (50%), 10-50 damage (50%)

Throwing knife (balanced, and actually meant to be thrown, “designed for throwing”)
0 throwing: 1-10 damage (50% of the time), 5-20 damage (50% of the time)
10 throwing: 20-50 damage (100%)

Like, as a starting point.

And could or should we have a classification for throwing purposes, such as a “designed for throwing”, and these weapons would be easier to hit with and they’d do damage more reliably, and even more so in the hands of an expert? Or maybe only few select weapons are “designed for throwing” and others are unreliable by default.

[munbeam]

From my own experience, a reinforced combat knife has 19 pierce. A head shot, perhaps with a crit rolled into it, will about triple it. That is about the extent of how throwing damage scales. Cutting or pierce damage with a precise hit mostly determines how much it does. Bash is limited by weight and heavy weapons seem to quickly lose that in the short range they can be thrown. Dex might add some but weapon choice may overshadow the positive values. You can technically throw a chainsaw at the range of one and if lucky with a headshot you might do 200. Even with high skill that is not easy. To be really cheeky give a diamond edge to a circular saw. You can eventually one shot soldiers or corrosive and about 18 str gives you a range of 5. Weight and its activation may be an issue but they easily fit in your pocket.

I believe about 20 throw skill can compensate for near minimum (4) per and low dex. High strength gives a good base range to maximize potential exp gain. Other than focus, landing a long range throw accurately gives huge gains. A fumble does not. Accuracy seems to scale more quickly than range. With the throw skill itself increasing both it is possible to get over 30 in the skill with a bit of effort and a large stack of throwing knives. Decapitating a squirrel with a throwing knife, at sniper rifle range, in light power armor that is not activated is about possible by then.

Honestly I would rather prefer to handle a multiple hulk scenario with my bare fists after seeing what 38 str (18 + bionics) can do for it. Just the vine lashes can match throwing combat knives. Throwing scales extremely fast with the right conditions but not necessarily better than other options. Its versatility and usability as a backup ranged option is unmatched though. So long as it has no cap, soft or otherwise, it might continue to be OP before the end game opens up all the better scaling options.

[Weyrling]

So I decided to go ahead and hunt down how much XP is actually gained from using throwing.

Basically if you hit the target you get XP based on how far away they are and how good a hit it was, but if you miss you just get 10.

// Copied from the shooting function
    const int range_multiplier = std::min( range, 3 * ( get_skill_level( skill_used ) + 1 ) );
    constexpr int damage_factor = 21;

    if( missed_by <= .1 ) {
        practice( skill_used, damage_factor * range_multiplier );
        // TODO: Check target for existence of head
        if( dealt_attack.hit_critter != nullptr ) {
            lifetime_stats()->headshots++;
        }
    } else if( missed_by <= .2 ) {
        practice( skill_used, damage_factor * range_multiplier / 2 );
    } else if( missed_by <= .4 ) {
        practice( skill_used, damage_factor * range_multiplier / 3 );
    } else if( missed_by <= .6 ) {
        practice( skill_used, damage_factor * range_multiplier / 4 );
    } else if( missed_by <= 1.0 ) {
        practice( skill_used, damage_factor * range_multiplier / 5 );
    } else {
        practice( skill_used, 10 );
    }

For reference, missed_by is counted in tiles, the second to last one at <=1.0 would be a graze.

Elsewhere in the throwing function there are tons and tons of deviation modifiers, from stats to item volume to weight.

Might want to increase the effect low skill has on accuracy, which will probably solve the problem, currently throwing is awfully accurate even at 0 skill.

Doesn’t even necessarily decrease accuracy at all, but below 3 skill it does run two tries:

[code]///\EFFECT_THROW <8 randomly increases throwing deviation
if( skill_level < 3 ) {
deviation += rng(0, 8 - skill_level);
}

if( skill_level < 8 ) {
    deviation += rng(0, 8 - skill_level);

[/code]

I’m also not entirely sure whether there’s an issue with the conversion from deviation to shot dispersion, but that’s a whole different thing:

// Rescaling to use the same units as projectile_attack
    const double shot_dispersion = deviation * (.01 / 0.00021666666666666666);

[Nibelung44]

That’s fine, but my experience is that I went from 0 to 8 during Spring. I can probably ditch revolvers now, they don’t compete with the throwing of a knife.

[Weyrling]

That’s fine, but my experience is that I went from 0 to 8 during Spring. I can probably ditch revolvers now, they don’t compete with the throwing of a knife.

You can actually reach 8 throwing skill in just a week if you really try.

The issue is that the skill gain of throwing a rock at a zombie is equivalent to that of firing a gun at them, and guns with bullets are much harder to acquire.
A backpack full of rocks takes minutes to gather, they’re reusable, silent, you don’t have to aim, and they take nearly no time to throw.

I’m thinking throwing needs to be a lot less accurate at lower skill in addition to offering less experience per throw.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

The problem is that throwing a rock has the same range as shooting a gun, which makes throwing useful but ridiculous. How can a normal (8 in all) stat character throw as far as a pistol can shoot?

And ammunition is everywhere.

Do throwing rocks bash? Bash is the best damage.

I just gained 1st level by throwing two rocks and a throwing knife at an Amoebic Mold. All hit.

I just missed the mold while shooting it with a P230 pistol. (9% skill gain)

At near maximum range and 1 skill I can hit my target using rocks 7 time out of 10.

[Weyrling]

The problem is that throwing a rock has the same range as shooting a gun, which makes throwing useful but ridiculous. How can a normal (8 in all) stat character throw as far as a pistol can shoot?

It’s actually pretty easy to throw rocks a good distance, whereas aiming a pistol is not that easy.
I don’t know about maximum range, but effective range makes sense to me.

Still, I think the issue really is the experience gain and accuracy, you can gain throwing experience super easily and it has good accuracy even with 0 skill at decent range.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

Throwing rocks have MAX range 12, the same as a .32 pistol.

[Rot]

I don’t think the EXP gain rate should be changed. I’ll explain why with a personal story of mine.

So I was with my uncle and mom, it’s been a very long time since I last saw them, and since my mom lives downtown near what I can only currently describe (without actually saying where it is) as “the clubbing area”.

Anyway, it was my first time playing darts in a bar, and I’ve gotten very little training in throwing stuff other than baseballs to a degree and rocks when I was a (dumb) kid.
On the other hand, my uncle has been doing this for years so obviously he knew how to throw darts.

To sum up a long story, in a couple hours I was able get the form down and hit a bullseye consistently.

Throwing isn’t hard once you get the form down.

[Nibelung44]

A real life example can’t be a justification of unbalanced gameplay

[kevin.granade]

Throwing is definitely super broken, the problem is every time I trey to balance it I can’t find any objective data on throwing range, accuracy, etc
Another issue is guns get scaled down in range out of technical necessity, but then throwing is ignored.
The most helpful thing would be if you can find data on distances of thrown items irl, if we have a distance and a wrought we can calculate kinetic energy.

[Aabbcc]

Finding a fix for the gun formula so it doesn’t go to hell past 30 might be the way to go to fix throwing.

[Nibelung44]

Really Kevin, you want to adjust throwing to be somehow realistic, without concern to gameplay balance? I humbly suggest that you have enough feedback or data with what the guns do to tone down throwing now. A simple fix like doubling dispersion and reducing damages by -33% would be safe and allow people to provide further feedback.

[Rot]

[quote=“Nibelung44, post:15, topic:13106”]A real life example can’t be a justification of unbalanced gameplay

[/quote]

Ayy lmao

I defended the learning speed but that’s pretty insane.

That’s like batman-tier throwing.

[kevin.granade]

Really Kevin, you want to adjust throwing to be somehow realistic, without concern to gameplay balance

Where did I say that?

I humbly suggest that you have enough feedback or data with what the guns do to tone down throwing now. A simple fix like doubling dispersion and reducing damages by -33% would be safe and allow people to provide further feedback.

Feedback to what end? If we just keep tweaking numbers based on, “this feels about right”, it will never end, because what “feels right” can and will shift over time.

An alternative to statistics for achievable throwing performance is detailed anecdotes about throwing, such as, “a skilled* thrower can reliably** hit a target moving at walking speed with a rock at a range of 10 metres”.

• need to define what skilled means.
• need to define what reliably means.
  With a reasonably sized last of these statements, we can assemble a set of tests verifying that the statements are met by the system, then if someone wants to rebalance the system they need to address the preexisting statements.